Sonny Liston

I didn't suggest that.
I simply objected to Houndini's claim that Machen's statement of February 1964 was true, because Machen had "no reason to lie". In fact, as I pointed out, there was a motivation to lie. Also, unless Machen is shown to have mentioned it before Clay mentioned it, then it does seem like he just jumped on the bandwagon, "yes, Sonny did that to me to!".

And I also pointed out that Machen had been committed for "acute schizophrenia" which is relevant.
I've known people with schizophrenia, and they do have very strange and distorted ideas of what is happening, or what has happened to them in the past, or why things happened the way they did.
So, Machen may not have even "lied", yet invented something that wasn't the truth that at the time he might have thought was the truth.

^ This is exactly what I've been saying.

For me this discussion is about the fairness of Sonny Liston being branded a "serial cheat" of a despicable kind.
I don't think it's fair, based on the flimsy evidence.

I don't think we should run roughshod over Liston's always-tarnished reputation just to repeat tales that feed into the drama of the Ali legend, if that's what you're suggesting.

 

My point is Machen did not have mental health problems when he fought Liston, neither was he diagnosed as a schizophrenic, he had a complete breakdown at the end of 1962 which led to 14 months absence from the ring .But since he fought Liston in September 1960 this had no bearing on their fight.
I have an open mind on the Liston/linament situation it has not been proved as far as I can see.
I believe Ali had a substance in his eyes how it got there, I've no way of knowing.
The fairy stories about Ali that have circulated on here in the last couple of days are not based on "flimsy evidence" ,they are based on none at all,and it is self evident that they are totally prompted and motivated by a personal dislike of the man.

 

Over thirty years ago I worked with a guy who had a breakdown ,coincidentally he was former pro lhvy.It was at the time Ali was going to defend against Richard Dunn, this guy went around the site I was working on asking for money from his work mates so that he could get his licence back and challenge Ali, he was in his late 40's at the time.After a period in a sanatorium he came out ok and has not had any problems since, neither did he exhibit problems before he"snapped", as you put it, I know this because I used to train at the gym he ran. I saw him a couple of weeks ago he is fine, still tall and straight in his 70's.


Bottom line you got the time frame wrong by two years, wouldn't it be simpler to say so?

 

His comments about being blinded by Liston were immediately after the Liston-Clay fight, February 1964.
This was sometime after he'd been diagnosed as suffering from acute schizophrenia.

I have no idea what those fairy tales are.
It's probably all irrelevant to my defending Sonny Liston.

 

Source: Medical News Today

 

Oh, that proves he was ill in 1960 then.atsch

 

Liston v Machen, one man wanted to fight ,one man wanted to run.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1134735/1/index.htm

 

That confirms that there's a possibility that he was, not that he actually was, this we don't know.

 

That's rather different to Mcgrains assertion that" he was almost certainly mentally ill at the time of the Liston fight " don't you think? Jesus is it such a big deal for some of you guys to say, ok I think I got it wrong?

 

You implied Machen was mentally ill with schizophrenia when he fought Liston, Machen had a breakdown 2 years after,so you have zero evidence to support this view.

There are three of you that are patently mistaken , and none of you have the balls to man up to it.

We also have Jowcol talking about conspiracies , videos being edited,Foreman being drugged, it's all such a load of absolute BOLLOCKS

 

Show me where I implied Machen was mentally ill with schizophrenia when he fought Liston.
You can't, because I didn't. If you mis-interpreted my statement that way, that's no biggie with me, so I'm not sure why you're arguing.
I've already explained my comment.

And, for your information, I double checked the date he was committed to the mental institution and checked what he was diagnosed with before I even mentioned it, nevermind before you got involved. Because I considered it a serious matter to bring up in the conversation, and believe in getting my facts straight.

I would have absolutely no problem admitting the mistake, but I'm afraid I didn't make one. You did.

 

None of which has anything to do with allegations that Liston was a serial cheater.

 

^ Nowhere have I said that Machen was suffering from mental illness in the Liston fight.
Taken in context it should be fairly clear that I was explaining why I thought the truth of his comments of February 1964 could certainly be doubted.
Of course, I could have made it clearer, but never did I imagine that someone would feel the need to attack what I wrote because of their own mis-interpretation, nevermind continue it and virtually call me a liar after I'd explained it.

:-(

 

I've never made any such allegations.

 

No I didn't, I checked when Machen fought Liston and when he was committed for treatment, there is a two years time difference between them.