Liston vs Marciano?

Can't argue against that.

 

Who said you could talk to men?

 

Spanked?? Spanked?? How very dare you! Nobody has ever spanked me! (Apart from the wife....but that was supposed to be a secret.)

First of all, of course Moseley, Cotto, De la hoya and money maywether recorded low punch stats against great fighters who were hard to hit!!!! They were not jabbing an Albert Westphal level of opponent.

I would not insult your intelligence in trying to presume that you might believe that a fighter records the same jab percentage against all levels of fighters! Its obvious that the weaker the opposition the more punches you land. Harder the opposition the less you land etc etc. But you know this. Everyone does. That's why there is no harm in saying Liston missed jabs against cannon fodder. Because he did.

Wouldn't you think maywether or any great fighter would have a better jab percentage against a target like westphal than say a great fighter who is hard to hit?

Secondly if I use an example to demonstrate why Liston could have difficulty landing on the way in is that such a bad thing? Liston has to punish Rocky on the way in with the jab otherwise Rocky gains a step closer and finds his range first.
If Liston is reduced to only a 17% jab percentage (like mayweather in a chess match) against a Marciano it could be a major problem for sonny. Liston could be forced into exchanging at a closer range where sonny would be restricting his own leverage and trying to match Rockys fierce pace without his full power.

 

I know this is beside the point really, but i do feel compelled to say Cotto is far from a great fighter and nor is he tough to hit.

 

I don't think that the punch to beat Marciano was the jab, and this is for a couple of reasons. First, if it was, Walcott, Charles, and Moore (and if you can think of three guys that were smarter in the ring, HWs, please list them) didn't fight him that way. They chose to try and hit him coming in. Second, what is the standard counter for the jab? What was Marciano's best punch? Third, do you think that a trainer as astute as Goldman would send him in to fight Liston without a definite plan for dealing with the Liston jab?
marciano would fight out of a crouch, shading his weight to his own right, putting himself out side the Liston left. He'd get inside, and i don't think that that would be a problem for him. Liston wouldn't be able to fight him, round after round, inside, so he would hold on. Marciano would either win a decision going away or stop him after 9 or 10.

 

Another possibility, and a likely one imo, is Liston busts Marciano's face up so badly the fight is stopped on a TKO.
No referee would have let his 2nd fight with Charles go on with that type of nose laceration today.

Rocky was also in danger of being stopped on cuts by Keene Simmons , but as Charley Goldman said," he had the equalizer.".

 

All three of the men you mentioned were past prime and they are his best opponents.
Apart from ducking under them ,Marciano's main defence against the jab was the palm of his right glove, held up to the left side of his face. Goldman said he tried to teach Marciano to punch short but it hampered his natural power and leverage, so he reverted him back to Suzie Q.

 

The fight with Charles wasn't really allowed to go on. Rocky was just given one round to produce something , and with his nose split and in terrible pain, he pulled out a knockout victory in that single given round.
That is why Rocky can never be ruled out.
Only three fighters exist who i think beat Rocky woithout question and thats Foreman , Tyson and Lewis.

 

Liston cut petty bad too. Ali cut his cheek. Against Martin Sonnys nose went. Rocky cut fighters up as well. Can't think of a heavyweight champ who lost his title on a cut can you?

 

Rugged fight for a few rounds but Liston was not as fast as Charles or Walcott, I would say Sonny was a bigger version of Moore less than an inch in height but heavier and longer reach and stronger but not as cagey or smart as the Mongoose. Marciano was not that easy to hit and he countered from unorthodox angles. Marciano starts out slowly but picks up the pace with each round, he has respect for Sonny's power but no fear. Marciano comes on strong after the 4th 5th round and Sonny gets caught and has a hard time keeping Marciano on the outside, the pace and power take its toll and Marciano get the KO in rugged fight both men swollen and bruised ....Marciano by KO in 9

 

The one with the steel jaw (Marciano) would beat the one with the glass jaw (Liston).

Let's remember Liston got knocked out by a light punch in the first round.

 

So what if they were past there prime? all three were either champions or # 1 contenders, and great fighters when they fought Rocky

 

I didn`t know I was. Judging by your posts I assumed you were about 12. I don`t want to give you too much credit.

In case your head is still spinning were not actually talking.

 

Actually, by the end of his career, Goldman had shortened his stance to make him better both inside and defensively. This was about the time in his career when people started to question his power because he was hitting guys more, and stopping them, as opposed to one shot ko-ing them.
His main defense against the jab was two-fold. First, the crouch, with his weight over his right foot. That makes an opponent reach with his jab, as opposed to a guy like Frazier with his weight up front. Second, he slide to his right, surrounding an opponent's jab. This also moves you away from his right hand. This also makes him step around you if he is going to follow his lead foot when he steps and jabs; when he steps around you, he steps into the line of your right hand.

 

:huh Lay off the ETM.