Greatest Fighter Ever ?

I would rate Pep over Armstrong. I think he had better longevity. Willie`s record boggles the mind.

A great trainer like Angelo Dundee had Willie Pep #1 of alltime. Also fighters like Paul Pender and Carmen Basillio had said that Willie Pep was the best they ever saw. They saw Robinson they saw Charles and probably saw Armstrong.

 

Thank you.

Another question while I have you on the phone. Did Pep really win a round without throwing a punch. I mean in the gyms in NY. Were guys really talking about this...or is it made up because we all actually think Willie could have done it?

 

Everyone heard about his fight with Jackie Graves, I believe who Pep supposedly won a round without throwing a punch. But if true, so what ? George Washington was rumored to have tossed a silver dollar across the Potomac River ...But the Willie Pep I saw before his plane crash was
almost surreal. He seemed to anticipate his opponents next move...And he beat some terrific featherweights who would be champion today as Chalky Wright, Sal Bartola, Joey Archibald, my neighborhood sensation who won 56 fights in a row Lulu Costantino, Phil Terranova, who beat a prime Sandy Saddler etc...And remember Pep was fighting every 2 weeks or so against
everyone...Truly he was "Willie the Wisp"....

 

I definately think Tommy's second win over Greb is better than any of Tunney's. It was more conclusive as well and took place when Greb was in his prime.

The first fight between both Greb and Tommy and Greb and Mike took place when Greb was still green so those dont mean as much to me. A glance at Tommy's record might indicate that he was as green as Greb but his record doesnt tell the full story. At that point Tommy was already very seasoned, having been tutored by and served as chief sparring partner to the greatest fighter in the world at that time: Mike. Thats a huge advantage in my book.

 

Did your father ever watch Monzon, Ray Leonard or Duran?

What did he think of Ali?

 

A lot of Greb's fights were under less than 10 rds. up to that point right? I wonder if that had some influence on the development of his style. A very intense pace from start to finish makes sense on a 6 rounder and it seems he had a lot of them early in his career.

And Tommy still flies under the radar of most people somehow. One of the best scalps in boxing history and you gotta be thankful if you see him in the top end of the 10-15 row of a list somewhere these days.

I appreciate you answering my questions BTW klompton, thx a lot. It seems I really need to get a copy.

 

My dad stopped going to the fights in MSG and New York clubs before the Ali/Frazier fight...I saw the FOTC in MSG in 1971 by happenstance..A buddy of mine bought me a ticket to that historic fight unbeknownst to me...Came home from work and there was my friend with my ticket...Oh what an unforgettable night !!!. My dad and I first saw Clay in the amateur finals at MSG when the gangly LH Clay eeked out a decision over a terrific Aussie LH Anthony Madigan...He and I ever dreamed that this clay would ever be a Heavyweight contender ,let alone a Champion..He later watched Clay against henry Cooper and almost being kod by Sir Henry...But Cooper was a bleeder and my dad would say "could you picture what a Joe Louis would have done against Clay, if a Cooper was able to hurt Clay this way ?"
He would always say that the boxers of the television era were by and large inferior to the 1930s and 1940s, because TV ruined the training grounds for the fighters, closing so many local boxing arena's that spawned
the past fighters who fought every 3 or so weeks...And I and all the boxing writers of that time were of the same opinion...He would comment when watching tv how boxing deteriorated when TV closed the local fight clubs...For example in the 1940s in NYC there was a boxing card every night of the week except Sunday in the NY area...There were 5 times as many pro fighters in the USA fighting OFTEN learning their trade under the guidance of full time trainers as Ray Arcel, Whitey Bimstein, Freddie Brown, Charley Goldman, Chickie Ferrera, in the NYC area alone....Boxing was ruined by TV. Why go out of your house with a brew in your hand, dragging yourselve by subway to pay money at a boxing club ? So the lack of attendance closed the boxing arena's that gave boxers the experiences to develop their talents, resulting in less boxers developing their skills...
For example in the 1940s when I was growing up and going to a fight card or two most every week, look at the top fighters of that era.
Heavyweight - Joe Louis, Joe Walcott
LH= Ezzard Charles, Archie Moore, Lloyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins
MW= Tony Zale, Jake LaMotta, Charley Burley, Marcel Cerdan, Georgie Abrams
WW= Ray Robinson, Tommy Bell, Kid Gavilan, Johnny Bratton, Carmen Basillio, Billy Graham
LW= Ike Williams, Beau Jack, Bob Montgomery, Sammy Angott, Willie Joyce
FW= Willie Pep, Sandy Saddler, Chalky Wright
BW= Manuel Ortiz
All these great fighters fought at least 100 bouts fighting the very best the
public demanded, under the guidance of great full time trainers...
Yes my dad would talk to me about all this...And he was correct...cheers.

 

Willie Pep won 229 fights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9aEURJrgpw

 

Greb or Robinson...

Or Maske.

 

Hey Bert, I am a bit torn between Greb and Robinson (and Langford pulling in the third)... My inclusion of Robinson in the argument is based on the film of him. He is just such a seamless and beautiful fighter. As we all know, there is no "released" footage of Greb. But I am really curious, seeing as your dad saw him, did he ever describe his style or anything about him as a fighter? Hit those memory banks if you could. I would be really fascinated by details you could recall.

 

Tommy Gibbons was cold ass hard mother****er.

In every book I read regarding Miske, Dempsey, Greb or the era in general, Tommy is referred to as fighter another level above the rest. You can easily sense the disproportionate respect he is given by his contemporaries.

Someone needs to take the time and write a proper book on him.

 

Good thread!..It was tough but I went with The Bomber..

 

hya S...When I was a young lad my dad took me to the NY Golden Gloves bouts in the NY area such as Ridgewood Grove and the Bwy Arena. That is why later on I joined the GG tournament when I was 16.. At one of the bouts my dad, my uncle [old enough to have seen Stanley Ketchel train in Van Cortland Park ] and I, shook hands with the young sensational amateur Ray Robinson who would soon turn pro...My dad of course was a boxing fanatic who boxed as a youngster in smokers, saw Harry Greb but ONCE giving a horrendous beating to Gene Tunney at MSG in 1922. But he was so impressed by this buzz saw that evening, that when I would ask him "Who was the best fighter you ever saw ?", he would always reply Benny Leonard and Harry Greb, even years later when he and I saw Ray Robinson in his welterweight glory...For what it's worth...
Years later I asked Ruby Goldstein who was a sensational puncher ,who saw Greb fight, and of course saw and refereed Ray Robinson, "who would have won beyween Harry Greb and Ray Robinson if they fought ?".
Goldstein took his cigar out of his puss and told a few of us at a seminar
in New Hampshire " It would be a man against a boy ". I asked him "who is the man ?".He replied ,"Greb". For what it's worth....Later on reading tons of accounts of Greb's exploits and seeing what Robinson looked like ringside, I am convinced that what Greb accomplished fighting and whipping heavier Light Heavies and some heavyweights of all colours, sizes and styles, Harry Greb was the MAN...Just my studied opinion...cheers.

 

Its an interesting question. I think its kind of a "which came first the chicken or the egg?" type of thing. When Greb started fighting 10 rounders and 20 rounders he made the comment that he wasnt initially sure if he could sustain the pace but quickly found out that he could with relative ease.

 

I will read it. I look forward to it. And after I will try to find this thread to tell you what I think.