1980"s H-weights..who was biggest wasted talent?

Nice stuff, Anubis.

 

Watching him jab away at Dino Denis effectively, I think Gerry's jab needed to be cultivated far more with some ten and 12 round distance bouts. He'd have been far better off going the limit with Denis, which might have prepared him for the long haul with Young [who seemed to have things going his way when Gerry's improved right ripped Jimmy's face open].

It's a business first and foremost. By that standard, the "Wacko Twins" succeeded completely simply by getting Cooney to the opening bell against Holmes for 10 million, and Gerry would have been set for life even if he hadn't gotten back up in round two. But to be a better competitor, he needed to be extended the distance against limited but durable opposition, made to win with his jab, and continue to improve his right hand with Valle. Weirdly, he didn't concentrate on attacking Young's body as he should have, the best way he could have won a decision over Jimmy.

Cooney had limited physical strength, speed, mobility and punch resistance. But with his height and reach, his jab made Denis look small and far away. Dino was face to face with Foreman and Bugner, but not with Gerry.

No, Cooney couldn't beat Holmes, but a WBA Title win would have been extremely viable with his height and reach, if he'd maintained the jab orientation he used against Denis combined with an improved right. That jab would have been a big problem for the 6'1" Weaver and short armed Dokes to deal with.

That jab would also have been essential for Gerry to win against Cobb, who the physically weaker Cooney would have otherwise needed to stay away from and outbox, as he couldn't hurt Tex or win a brawl of attrition. Gerry was actually going to fight Shavers, but got injured and had to withdraw. Cobb substituted for Cooney, and Cobb-Shavers wound up on the undercard of Hearns-Cuevas in Detroit, Dunphy calling the action with Norton and Palomino on color and Cooney providing guest commentary with future opponent Norton.

Gerry was already the WBC's number 1 contender, coming off his win with Young. Norton was on hold after the draw with LeDoux a year earlier, and it didn't look like he'd compete again. Palomino, Cooney and Norton weren't impressed with either Tex's lack of speed against Earnie, or Randy's arm punches, and Gerry felt that the body punches Shavers unloaded on Cobb were effective at slowing Tex down and hurting him.

It would have been natural for Cooney to take on the winner of Cobb-Shavers after being Earnie's originally scheduled opponent, but Norton decided to unretire and do something Gerry wouldn't; go down to the Lone Star State and take on Randall in San Antonio, while Cooney remained in the friendly confines of New York to take on Lyle in Uniondale. Ken got a credible win by handing Cobb his first career defeat in a good scrap [but by SD, thanks to Dallas judge Arlen "Spider" Bynum, in a match that should have been a clear UD], while Gerry gained little in the way of worthwhile experience in wiping out the 39 year old Lyle [already damaged goods after nonentity Lynn Ball blew him out in two a year earlier].

Cooney-Cobb is the match that should have taken place in the autumn of 1980, not Norton-Cobb or Cooney-Lyle. After the way Cooney-Young had been abbreviated by Jimmy's cut, Gerry still needed more seasoning, and he clearly wasn't intimidated by Cobb's showing against Shavers. Cobb, and then a 1981 rematch with Young would have been the ideal preparation for Holmes, if the "Wacko Twins" were serious about building Gerry's readiness as a title challenger. He admitted after Holmes that he was concerned about his stamina going in. Going ten with Cobb and Young might have given him the confidence to not be hindered by those self-doubts.

 

Anubis is on it today. A pleasure reading your comments.

 

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And you provided an interesting alternative answer with Johnny DuPlooy. Aside from yourself, the concentration here so far has been on Holmes reign era contenders, but Larry's reign ended in September 1985, leaving a whole half decade to go.

It couldn't have been easy to be a white South African HW in the international community at the time, and Johnny didn't fight outside the country until Snipes stopped him in '88.

More mention and scrutiny needs to be directed at Tyson era contenders who rose up when he did. Orlin Norris had an initial NABF HW reign which lasted from 1987 through to the end of the decade. He only trails Ali as the winningest HW in NABF history, but never got a shot at a world title in the HW ranks when it mattered, despite going 22-1 during the decade. Watching him school a 220 pound Page, I thought he might give Tyson a few issues with skill and stamina rather than power.

 

anubis....how good do you think dokes could have been if he stayed off the coke.....or did he have a style that was always destined to have a short peak ?

 

What about john tate?

Just seen his fight v weaver mental ending didnt see that coming.Then checked their records and saw mike weaver fought larry holmes in the year 2000 didnt see that coming neither!!

So did that weaver ko finish him for good or was he paper champ?

 

This is the first post I have ever read questioning Norton's power .. Ken Norton could certainly hit ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0EQ6A2Ij_U 8:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXFBWPDNXJk 2:20

 

Doug, before answering this, I reviewed Dokes-Cobb I & II, still having Dokes-Gardner, Dokes-Ocasio I and II, Dokes-Weaver I & II, Norton-Cobb, Holmes-Cobb and Cobb-Shavers fresh in my mind, along with Coetzee-Dokes and Holyfield-Dokes.

Mike had tremendous hand speed, great combinations, and a left hook he often did not telegraph. Seemed to have had a decent chin at his best. However, his foot work did not match his hand speed, he was far too easy to hit for his speed and style of boxing, and a 75 inch reach was not great for somebody standing 6'3" tall.

As slow and relatively inexperienced with boxing as Cobb was, he was able to reach Michael with his longer jab, land his slow right cross and right uppercut as well as hook, and actually did make Dokes miss as well as block many shots in both their bouts. I believe the ancient and rusty Norton was better against Tex when countering off the ropes than Michael was in continual retreat the first time he faced Randy. While I think Dokes did win their first bout with his superior work rate, Cobb actually did have some of his best rounds when Michael went to his toes, and an MD verdict was an accurate reflection of how competitive Dokes-Cobb I was. I have no doubt that Norton-Cobb would have been a clear UD for Ken on the same neutral Las Vegas turf. It was also my sense that Tex would have decisioned Michael if their first bout had been over the championship distance.

Dokes-Cobb II had an extremely unfortunate ending caused by a genuinely accidental clash of heads, but this time, there was an extremely critical difference from their first match. With Tex now having gained a lot more experience since they originally met four years earlier, he was actually outworking and outscoring his much faster opponent. In the first round, Tex landed 48 out of 78 punches thrown, in round three, 30 out of 65. I had him sweeping the first three rounds of their rematch, so there's no way Dokes should have gotten the SD on the fourth round TD in his favor. And he wasn't going to win over 12 the way it was going when it ended.

While he bulked up to a muscular 227 for their rematch at age 26, and tried to stand up to Cobb more, he just couldn't do it. Physically, Tex was 1000 times stronger than he looked. On a scale of 1-10, assessing Cobb's physical strength by his absence of muscularity has a value of minus 15. He was far and away the physically strongest prominent HW in boxing since Foreman, continually shoving the weight trained Shavers backwards with a lean and shove of his shoulders in the clinches. Norton, Dokes, Shavers and Holmes never had his back against the ropes, only their own backs when not continually retreating.

If Tex wasn't exclusively an arm puncher, if he knew how to hit with leverage, he would have knocked out Dokes twice.

Ocasio clearly won his first bout with Michael, but it was also stupid on the part of Dokes to pull a Foreman and not get there three weeks in advance to acclimate to the outdoor venue. For their rematch, he did get back down there three weeks beforehand, and this time had an air conditioned indoor setting to compete in. Still, I have doubts about the integrity of that minute and a half blowout.

Joey Curtis admitted immediately after Dokes-Weaver I that the fresh Mancini-Kim tragedy induced him to stop it when Hercules was in far less trouble than he'd been in with Coetzee, or after the 11th round uppercut with Holmes that a 60 second rest period was not sufficient for him to recover from. If Mancini-Kim had an uneventful aftermath, it's no sure thing that Dokes would have been handed the WBA title by the skittish Curtis on a silver plate. I do think Weaver won the rematch.

Looking at Norton-Cobb, then Dokes-Cobb I makes one realize what an obscene superiority Holmes had over everybody else in 1982 by actually shutting Tex out over the championship distance in Houston's Astrodome. Michael couldn't even begin to sniff that level of dominance over Cobb before or after his WBA reign.

Take away the coke, have Dokes live the monastic training life of a Marciano or Hagler, and he still had very serious limitations in punching power and defensive elusiveness. His reach was just two inches more than Frazier's, not good for a man of his height. It resulted in a hook which he could use like a jab, but he'd still have a bad disadvantage at long range with the likes of Cooney [as Gerry jabbed Denis] and did have issues with the slower but longer armed Cobb's jab.

Frankly, I don't believe he'd have been much more competitive with Holmes than Cooney and Cobb were in 1982. For me, the best alternative champion to Holmes during Larry's 1980s reign was clearly Weaver, who instead of wasting what talent he had, made the most of his limited ability from 1978 to 1986, and still continued producing surprises with surprising wins and respectable showings. [Twice he went the limit in rematches against opponents who had previously stopped him in one, specifically Dokes and Bonecrusher.]

When an out of shape, overweight and badly winded Ali boxed the blazing fast 19 year old Dokes in an April 1977 Miami Beach exhibition a month before Evangelista, there were moments when Michael looked like a hapless Jerry Quarry in 1972, with the way Muhammad effortlessly made Dokes completely miss over 20 punches thrown in eight seconds while Ali pinned himself in a corner wide open with his hands spread on opposite sides of the top ropes, and invited him to try landing just one. Muhammad's longer arms made reaching him a real challenge for the then 5-0 former amateur star. Granted, that was only an exhibition, but also a harbinger of problems Dokes would later face as a top HW. He couldn't overcome his deficits by slipping and countering like the 1968 and 1969 Jerry Quarry could, and I would favor the JQ of Spencer and Mathis to take any version of Michael out.

Beyond that, he just didn't have the stamina to support his style of distance oriented boxing as he should have. I don't like his odds against any heavyweight contemporary with a quality jab like Carl Williams or Pinklon Thomas, and he wasn't low enough or strong enough with his hook to make a living on the inside like Frazier.

Having Carl King in his corner and father Don as his promoter gave him a tremendous advantage in having doors open for him. No, I don't think he was a wasted talent to the degree Witherspoon and Cooney were, he did have serious limitations with his combination of height with short arms and hittability. Performing on a regular basis against a consistently better grade of opposition guaranteed a limited shelf life as the head shots began to accumulate.

 

Great post man, I learned a lot.

 

Ken was more of an arm puncher but he had power

 

Page,Witherspoon,Tubbs, Thomas, there were times they shaped up and times they did not, drugs also had an influence on them and Dokes as well. Witherspoon won most of his key fights by SD, no fire...Thomas went back on heroin and Dokes liked coke....trial horse Weaver 18-9 got his confidence from almost stopping Holmes but Weaver got him self into shape after that fight and stayed fit...Holmes also stayed in condition...condition makes a difference

 

Surprised that it's the first post you've read concerning his lack of power. However, Jerry Quarry describes how deceptive Kenny's appearance of punching power could be, and very knowledgeably with explicit details while providing commentary for Norton-Middleton. There are other broadcasts of Ken's bouts on youtube where his lack of power is discussed. Jerry was absolutely shot for Norton, then gassed quickly after a desperation attack after getting severely cut, but at no time was he buckled or wobbled by Ken, [which Jerry did momentarily do at the first moment referee Johnny LoBianco began jumping in to call a halt, but leaped quickly back when he saw Norton's knees dip from Jerry's short right] just swarmed by a ton of leather at the end [at which time he shoved away LoBianco in disgust, hardly the same as turning away from Frazier the year before].

Randy Stephens [a future CW Title challenger to Ocasio] and Bobick are rather extreme anomalies. He did show some good power in Ali II, and knocked out Garcia in their rematch with a fine body attack, but he couldn't dent a way past it and badly overweight Stander before winning on cuts, and it took him five rounds to knock out a china chinned Zanon. He hit an impervious LeDoux with everything in the book just a few months after the ancient Lyle wobbled Scott repeatedly.

I think he was a decent puncher, not as hard a hitter as Jerry, but unlike JQ, he was tall enough and had enough reach to get to Ali. [Standing side by side, commentators seemed to opine that Ken was actually ever so slightly taller than Muhammad, something not conveniently evident by his lower boxing posture.] Stephens was the definitive one punch knockout of his career, Bobick his most anomalous win. But most of his signature stoppages were by accumulation, and sometimes on cuts.

By all means, check out Norton-Middleton for JQ's comments on his power and punching technique.

 

thanks anubis...i've enjoyed reading these posts of yours.

 

New day today Seamus, so maybe we shall see if you've jinxed me with your flattery. [I blow hot and cold anyway, at least the way my long winded posts get received.] I don't have the consistency of guys like yourself.:!: