Does anyone believe Fraziers greatness took a hit with his losses to Foreman?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by TheSouthpaw, Sep 28, 2013.


  1. JLP 6

    JLP 6 Fighter/Puncher Full Member

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    I do not know what to think of this. I have never known how to rank this beating. Foreman demolished a all-time great but was then KO'ed by another. Frazier gave Ali all the problems he could handle but dealt with Foreman realitively easy.

    The best I can say is that Foreman was a better fighter than Frazier. Frazier does not take a hit because Foreman was not able to sweep the both Frazier and Ali. Foreman simply had Fraziers number. Because of that, the only hit he gets is being placed below Foreman.
     
  2. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

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    Joe did not quit, not ever. In Kingston, George kept looking over to Frazier's corner between knockdowns during the second round, pleading for Durham and Futch to stop it before Joe got killed.

    No, Smoke's greatness did not take a hit with his losses to Foreman, his heart and guts were further validated. Halting Frazier entailed either rendering him almost completely blind as in Manilla [where he still wanted to continue], having a mandatory three knockdown rule in place [which Futch saved him from the indignity of in their 1976 rematch], or actually killing him [which might have happened in Jamaica with a referee like Ollie Pecord, and Frazier had seconds like Paret and Classen did].

    In 1981, he tried his damnedest against Jumbo Cummings, and while a letdown when measured against Joe's peak, the Frazier-Cummings draw was actually a decent heavyweight bout as a self contained event, acceptable action made so by Smoke's hustle and continuing good hand speed. [Frazier-Cummings was better than most Ali fights not involving Joe, since Muhammad rarely could carry good action on his own, Brian London and Cleveland Williams being a couple exceptions to that.]
     
  3. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Nicely summed up :good
     
  4. Anubis

    Anubis Boxing Addict

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    I do not place him below Foreman, because even if George always had his number in a peak for peak hypothetical pairing, I personally believe Joe would have defeated more of history's other great heavyweights at his best. That's partly why I have him among my top five ATGs in that division.
     
  5. JLP 6

    JLP 6 Fighter/Puncher Full Member

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    Interesting.

    I find the only way I can be satified with my list even under scruntiny is rank fighters from the same weight division is who beats who. I think prime Foreman beats Prime Frazier. I think that Prime Ali beats all other Heavweights, then Joe Louis...on down the line.
     
  6. doug.ie

    doug.ie 'Classic Boxing Society' Full Member

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    my grandfather, who instilled this love of boxing history in me, drummed it into me that the foreman v frazier fight proved that frazier was one of the toughest heavyweight champions ever and how he kept getting up showed how great his chin was.
    useless info on a thread like this me saying that though :)
     
  7. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    I think Frazier had already paid his dues as a great fighter before the Foreman fight. Foreman was Joe's one fight too many. It is as relevant as Jack Johnson losing to Jess Willard. Or Duran losing to Hearns.

    Of course Frazier continued to be relevant beyond losing his title but that was only in order to chase Ali in superfights, even the Cummings fight was timed around an ALi comeback. Apart from bugner Frazier only ever beat familiar men from his own era.

    Frazier was done as a great fighter after TFOTC.
     
  8. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Did his greatness take a hit ?
    Well that depends how you look at it. The Foreman loss doesn't wipe away any results or reasons that make Frazier great.
    On the other hand, obviously if Frazier beat Foreman he'd rank a lot higher.
     
  9. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    So, you don't consider Frazier a great fighter on the nights Ali beat him ?
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    This statement should not be given any credence.
    Johnson was a hounded fugitive from his own country, out of shape and fighting a giant.
    He was 37 years old in the ring, under broiling sun for over an hour and a half. For 20 rounds he was in front and the referee said had the bout been of 20rds duration, he would have had no hesitation in raising Johnson's hand.

    Going into the Foreman fight, Frazier had just turned 29 when Foreman made him into a yo yo he was not competitive in either encounter with Foreman.

    Duran was 33, fighting another two weights above his original weight.

    Frazier did not chase Ali too hard did he? Ali was the number one contender for two years after FOTC yet Frazier fought 2 ham and eggers rather than give him a rematch.

    Ali was doing the chasing NOT Frazier.

    Frazier was done as a great fighter after FOTC and he was only a great fighter for that ONE night in MSG.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    no.
     
  12. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Ok.
    So Ali's record against great fighters is what ?
     
  13. TheSouthpaw

    TheSouthpaw Champion Full Member

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    Ali did not DEAL with George..And there was nothin easy about it
     
  14. TheSouthpaw

    TheSouthpaw Champion Full Member

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    Frazier WAS great already comin into that FOTC...Foreman just had Joe's number I think we all know that..
     
  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    You can think what you like .