Does anyone believe Fraziers greatness took a hit with his losses to Foreman?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by TheSouthpaw, Sep 28, 2013.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Ali's record against men that were great at some period of their career is 3 imo.Foreman, Liston ,and Frazier.

    I'm not as quick to use the term as some. For example I do not consider Norton was ever a great fighter.
     
  2. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Of course it took a hit ... he went from undefeated heavyweight champion to destroyed in two rounds in a huge upset ... despite the tremendous heart he showed the image of a pudgy Frazier in huge trunks being knocked down in almost comical fashion time and again with Cosell screaming "down goes Frazier" could not help but leave a negative impression ... time and again I read here about Frazier having a weak chin and how he'd be vulnerable against any puncher, as if all punchers had the size, youth, strength and power of a 73 Foreman ... between that image and all the mean spirited slander the pre-sainted revision of Ali threw at him Frazier has become one of the most under rated, under appreciated fighters in recent memory by many however the hardcore fans and the fighters all know the truth and that was Frazier was a tough as steel warrior and an all time great.
     
  3. Sister Sledge

    Sister Sledge Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    It affects his standing, but I will say that if you look at the shape Joe was in for the Ali fight, and the shape he was in for the Foreman fight, there is a difference. Even so, I don't think he could ever beat Foreman. Joe's style was tailor-made for Foreman. He was too short with a short wingspan. George ate fighters like him for breakfast.
     
  4. clark

    clark Well-Known Member Full Member

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    It doesn't take a hit for people in the know. It's almost like Joe fought George once. Frazier was very war-torn and too heavy for the second fight. George was in peak condition for both. Because of Joe's physical condition, he shouldn't have fought after Manilla. Shows Joe's greatness that he(Joe) could still get a different style going for five rounds in the second Foreman fight despite all his physical setbacks.
     
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Frazier was a great fighter first and foremost.

    Frazier did what great fighters do. He cleaned out the division- Ali included but stayed around too long. Forget his age, he was battle torn after TFOTC. Foreman did not clean out but he should have. Frazier had already.

    Frazier was not ABLE to be competative against Foreman because he could no longer land from outside on the way in. If you meet Foreman head on nobody can afford to let Foreman land first! But this is what it had come to. Joe's eyes were bad and his timing was off. He was no longer a great fighter.

    As a great fighter Frazier was unbeaten.
     
  6. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven VIP Member banned Full Member

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    Sure, but it's almost meaningless to mention their greatness if they weren't great fighters when he beat them.
    In the case of Frazier, according to your opinion of him, you just have Ali beating a non-great fighter who was non-great in 36 professional fights out of 37 !
     
  7. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    First and foremost Frazier did not clean out his division .As the number one contender he did not meet, the following rated challengers.
    Al Jones
    Sonny Liston
    Leotis Martin
    Karl Mildenberger
    Al Lewis
    Floyd Patterson.
    As champion he did not meet the following rated contenders.
    Mac Foster
    Henry Cooper
    Jose Urtain
    Jose Garcia
    Joe Bugner
    Ron Lyle
    Ken Norton
    Ernie Terrell.
    The fact that he would be probably the favourite in each match is immaterial and irrelevant , fact is he did not defend against any of them.

    For two years Frazier avoided his rated challengers,preferring to defend against Ron Stander and Terry Daniels , two men who were never rated anywhere.FACT
    And no amount of sentimental back slapping fan- boy praise will alter it. After a gimme defence against Joe King Roman, Foreman took on Ken Norton.Both men were ranked, Roman was nothing much but he had beaten Terry Daniels twice and Manuel Ramos two challengers for Frazier's "title" and he was ranked..Foreman defended his title twice inside 14 months , 7 months after Norton ,Foreman defended against Ali so in 21 months he defended his title against 3 top ten rated challengers, seems a bit better than fighting 2 unranked no hopers in 2 years.:think
     
  8. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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  9. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    First of not sure who this Al Jones you are so outraged Frazier never fought is. the same guy Frazier KOd in 66? Second of all the wins that took Frazier up the ratings were the Doug Jones, machen, chuvalo and bonnavena wins. These were better wins than the other contenders were recording hence #1 status.


    Again I think Quarry, Ellis, unbeaten mathis, bonnavena, LH champ foster and Muhammad ALi surpass anything these guys did. There was only 22 months between fighting #1 ALi and #1 George foreman. Within that time ALi who Joe already beat was beating all the other contenders. Who wanted to see Frazier fight Mac Foster after Ali and quarry beat him? Nobody knew who Norton was until he beat ALi in 1973 and though Garcia was rated was he any better known than Ron Stander? Who ever Frazier should have fought it was only the 1972 list.

    The heavyweights who mattered during the 1966-1972 period were Ali, Ellis, quarry, bonnavena, chuvalo and Frazier cleaned them out.
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    "It was hotter than hell in there ". Jess Willard .

    Perhaps he would know best?:lol:
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I'm not out raged in the slightest .I'm just correcting a statement that Frazier cleaned out his division when it's patently obvious he did not.
    And no its not the same Al Jones, this one was a big heavyweight who could hit like a truck,which kind of explains why Frazier didn't meet him.:lol:
     
  12. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Frazier was n't that far over the other side of the hill to greatness in the second and third Ali fights,though.
     
  13. Chuck1052

    Chuck1052 Well-Known Member Full Member

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    The bout with George Foreman had to hurt Joe Frazier's standing in the long run, but I believe that Foreman was the only fighter of that era that presented Frazier with overwhelming matchup problems.

    - Chuck Johnston
     
  14. Bummy Davis

    Bummy Davis Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Frazier never hit the prime form after FOTC, in fact he was staggered by Stander and Daniels so while the Foreman fight was a large hit Frazier also had a very short window of prime
     
  15. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    Frazier got up for those fights because it suited him that ali did not hit like foreman and could therefore afford to walk through shots before getting into position.