Does anyone believe Fraziers greatness took a hit with his losses to Foreman?

That is one hell of a post ... post Superfight 1 Frazier needed to rest. Putting aside the fact he was blind in one eye he almost died from a myriad of illnesses following the Ali fight and required hospitalization for weeks. Prior to that fight ... 68 to 71 he fought and defeated the best in the division ... of course he was matched intelligently along the way avoiding no win/huge downside match ups in no demand fights like against an old Liston .. however he defeated Bonavena twice, Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis, Mathis, Foster and Ali ... that's a terrific line up of opponents. Martin was forced to retire in 69, Jones and Lewis were career sparring partners, Mildenberger was on a downward spiral as ws Cooper ... who in the group you listed above deserved a fight that you really feel had a good shot of beating him ? I say no one ... no doubt he coasted post Ali - pre Foreman but a big part of that was to heal and another was not to risk a big rematch w Ali ... Frazier was feeling his oats and I still feel no one but Ali or Foreman could have beaten him anyway as he proved by later beating Bugner and crushed Quarry who beat Foster, Shavers, Lyle and Patterson.

 

Fraziet beat all he had too...then 2 unbeaten fighters..similar age..both peak..Him v Ali.
HE WON. Nobody can alter that..March 1971 he beat 'the greatest' whilst they were both young unblemished unbeaten and in their prime.Never has a fighter made the most of what he had in such an effective way...what a fighter !

 

Here are some of the names Foremand didn't meet, as a contender.

Jerry Quarry
Oscar Bonavena
Jimmy Ellis
Mac Foster
Floyd Patterson
Jose Luis Garcia
Jack Bodell
Joe Bugner
Ernie Terrell

and post Ali

Earnie Shavers
Duane Bobick
Chuck Wepner
Randy Neumann
Larry Holmes
Howard Smith
Alfredo Evangelista
Gerrie Coetzee

I rank Joe's resume higher, and actually I consider him to be more talented than George. I can live with two defences against unranked opponents right between Ali and Foreman, given Joe's condition and all.

 

Agreed.:good

It was only 1972 that Frazier could have fought better opponents but most of them were tied up with Ali that year.

 

The fact that Frazier was somewhat diminished after FOTC does not excuse the fact that he did not defend his title against a ranked contender for two years . Two years healing?


What about the deserving challengers whose careers were stalled?

He was the champion ,so defend the title against contenders or relinquish it.

As I emphasised ,the fact that he would have been favourite against those contenders does not excuse him for refusing to meet them.

Mayweather would be favourite to beat his contenders , does that give him a licence to ignore them and fight palookas?
Frazier fans cut him slack for defending against nobodies and tying up the title for two years, I don't.

As champ if you defend against unranked challengers ignoring ranked contenders you will be ranked accordingly ,well at least I will rank you accordingly.

Ali was the number one contender for two years ,he had come out of nearly four years of inactivity and with only eighteen rounds of combat given Frazier life or death and put him in the hospital .He was also older than Frazier ,did he not deserve a rematch?


Let's say Ali had been in Frazier's shoes and after beating Frazier he had taken on Stander and Daniels,do you think the respective alphabet bodies would have looked the other way?

Jesus, there are guys on here denigrating Ali's choice of challengers when he was, not only in his mid thirties and past prime but sandwiching the lesser opponents between the likes of Frazier, Norton, Shavers ,and Lyle.
Who Frazier beat after he had lost the title is irrelevant, it's who he defended against I'm concerned with.

 

Would that have been because the champion refused to defend his title against them?atsch

 

After thrashing Frazier ,Foreman defended against the number 4 contender, the number three ,and the number one, all in a year and a half.

After beating Ali, Frazier defended against two men that were not rated anywhere and tied up the title for two years doing it.

So the fact that after FOTC, Frazier was not as good as he had been means that he is excused from defending against ranked challengers for two years? I wonder if the ranked contenders he avoided during that time have as charitable a view on it?atsch

 

Frazier defended his title against 2 unranked challengers and tied up the title for 2 years doing so.
Neither of those challengers was unbeaten.

Stander had lost
to Rico Brooks 8-11-1 just 16 months prior to challenging Frazier.


Daniels had lost 4 times, being stopped in 2 of them, just three fights ,before facing Frazier he had been kod in 2 rds by Floyd Casey who had the great record of 3-13-2.

Both defences were disgraceful travesties of heavyweight title fights..


The Ali Frazier beat in FOTC was coming back from nearly 4 years exile and had only 18rds of combat under his belt, that man put him in the hospital .
To say Ali was prime is a big stretch.

 

All while still prime, young and very much healthy. You can't compare their situations, it's not that simple. Now, I'll try not to stop you from discrediting Frazier for everything he did, you clearly invested some time in it. Keep doing what you do, my guess is that you won't change anyone's mind, but keep at it.

 

My contention is that Ali's prime was wasted by being out of the ring for nearly 4 years, so we never saw him fight while he was prime, that is an opinion shared by his trainer Angelo Dundee,who may have had some qualifications on the subject.

I admire Frazier ,I met him once and found him approachable and totally natural ,he was a great fighter the night he beat Ali , but it was only one night.

You could not stop anyone forming an opinion because your own are too flawed and lacking in logic.
I've no wish to change anyone's mind and sure as hell you won't be changing mine.

 

Right. That's why everytime someone says something nice about Frazier you come and keep spreading that opinion of yours about him keeping the title locked for 2 years. That's not an attempt to change someone's mind, at all.

 

I've said several nice things about Frazier, check my posts. Saying that Frazier kept the title locked for two years by fighting unrated opponents is not spreading an opinion in an attempt to change some one's mind ,it is a plain statement of fact.

Something you need to deal with instead of continually denying it.

 

Right, I guess you need to check my posts too, I never denied the fact that it happened, Frazier defended against two unranked opponents. The fact that you might have said some nice words about him once or twice doesn't change the fact that you seem to be everywhere trying to discredit him. And basically everyone told you the same thing, he came off his biggest win against Ali and was never the same, he was blind in one eye, therefore it's understandable he took the easy way and tried to hold on to the title as much as possible.

 

Harry Greb was blind in one eye after fightting Kid Norfolk he had a further 5 years at the top and 93 fights achieving many of his greatest
victories during that period.Langford was in a similar predicament ,he had about 150 more fights, and his best wins were during that time.
Neither of them spent 2 years fighting nobodies nor went round the world with a pop band though , they busied themselves fighting the very best men active maybe that was the problem?
Frazier did try to hold onto the title , but he did it by fighting men who were not worthy of a title opportunity and no amount of spin, or bull**** will change that.
Everyone hasn't told me anything and it would make jack **** difference if they did I make my own mind up .

What you think of my pointing out facts about Frazier's career doesn't really concern me because frankly after reading your posts and the way you NEVER address any subject that you cannot find an answer for, means that your opinion has no value for me.

I will listen to and absorb facts , what I won't do is be convinced by fan boys who either deny those facts , or excuse them out of hero worship.

 

Yes oh yes ! Ali would definitely have got verbally slaughtered had he been the one who defended against Daniels and Stander. One rule for one etc.