Does anyone believe Fraziers greatness took a hit with his losses to Foreman?

Frazier beat Ali. He would do fine today. He could even start his career at CW and mop up all the stiff euro bums that avoid each other like Huck,Lebedev and all the others. Then come into HW at 210 mop up Adamek,Boytsov etc

Frazier would be fine. If Haye can win a belt @ HW Frazier would be fine.

 

I like Wilder but Deontay was backed up by a 250 pound 5'11 former middlweight. Frazier would pressure and smash Wilder.

 

Strangely enough, Eddie Futch never viewed this as a fact.

Frazier never cleared the division out at any point in his career. You can argue that he beat some of the better and more notable contenders, but that's not the same as actually clearing an entire division out.

 

An entire division? As in each and every registered heavyweight? Are you splitting hairs or what!

My definition of cleaning out the division is the "man on the street test". At anyone time there are a handful of active contenders and champions that the general public are aware of and these are the fighters Frazier cleaned out. 1968-1972. It is all that matters.

Ali, Ellis, quarry, bonnavena, Mathis,chuvalo were the only ones that count. You could also throw in machen, Bob foser and Doug Jones but there really is no need.

Joe Louis defended his title a lot of times but (aside from champions he met as contender) it was only SChmeling, nova, Conn, galento, godoy and pastor that counted as chalengers before he went to war. Do you think "the man on the street" would hold it against joe Louis if he never defended against Nathan Mann or red Burman?

As it was I certainly don't hold it against Joe Louis that he DID NOT fight Len Franklin and Melio Bettina. He still cleaned out. Ask the man on the street in 1942 and he would say the same about Louis as he would Frazier in 1972 they cleaned out!

 

Machen, Mathis,Foster,Jones were not rated contenders when Frazier fought them. Jones had won 5 of his last 9 fights and lost his last two when Frazier beat him ,he had also not been rated for 3 years. Machen had lost 5 of his last 8 fights and had not been rated for 2 years. Foster never had a rrating at heavyweight as he never beat a good one. Therefore they DO NOT COUNT.
Bettina was a possible Louis opponent in the late 40's but he got himself kod in 1 rd by Lesnevich.
Mann was rated no 3 in 1937 Louis kod him in1938.
Burman was rated for 3 straight years38,39,40,Louis kod him in1940.

When were Daniels, Stander, Zygliweicz,or Mathis rated? ANSWER NEVER.

 

You are absolutely right, but Frazier fan boys are in denial about it.

 

Nice try, but I already said you could throw those in but they are not required. The dudes that "the man on the street" was bothered about were the ones Frazier cleaned out. Muhammad Ali, Quarry, Ellis, Mathis, Bonnavena and Chuvalo. 1967-1971. Think about it.

Betina could have been an opponent in 1941 since both he and Lem Franklin were rated then. But I could have also mentioned otis Thomas, pat Chomsky, Turkey Thompson, Roscoe Toles, Alberto Lovel, Maxi Rosrnbloom or Andre Neglet who were all rated within that time. Joe Louis did not need to fight them because he had already cast a clean sweep so far as the world minded.

You totaly missed my point bout Burman and Nathan mann. Just like Johnny paycheck I know they were rated! It is that they were no more significant to justify cleaning out a division any more than the guys Joe did miss like lovel, neglet, rosenbloom,comisky, toles, Bettina and Franklin.

No champ has ever needed to fight all the registered heavyweights at any one time in order to "clean out". That is ludicrous. So long as the best ones are dealt with the champ cleaned out. And they were dealt with. Muhammad Ali, uncle Tom Cobley and all.

 

I see you decided to completely ignore his point and instead make up one of your own. Check his post again and see what he said about Machen, Foster and Jones. I don't think Frazier completely cleand out the division, but he fought the best men of those times and beat them, including Ali.

 

Joe Frazier didn't clean out the division because he didn't beat George Foreman.
In RING magazine, Foreman was ranked #2 behind Ali at the close of 1970, he was ranked #3 behind Ali and Quarry at the end of 1971, and ranked #2 behind Ali at end of 1972.

If Frazier had beat Ali before Foreman was ranked that high, we could say he cleaned out.
But Foreman was up there, undefeated, and when they fought we know what happened.

 

I can see the angle you are coming from but it dosnt quite wash.

Foreman did not do quite enough to be rated that highly IMO. All he beat was Chuvalo who Frazier all ready beat then began to bottom feed to maintain his position. 1971 and 1972 George never fought a rated contender. Foreman needed more exposure before he could drive any real claim to an overdue title shot. #1ranking or not. In fact ALi surpassed Foremans entire career so far just with his wins over Ellis, Mathis, foster alone immediately after TFOTC.

Can anyone explain Foremans high rating as a contender? Pre title he fought quite a sorry bunch. Bugner was beating the same kind of men.

 

Yeah, Foreman happened to catch Chuvalo when Chuvalo was rated high off the win over Quarry. That's how Foreman got rated up there.
Chuvalo wasn't usually rated as a top fighter. Everyone good beat Chuvalo (except Quarry).

It's funny how Foreman went from being regarded as a no-hope novice (not seen to be in Ali or Frazier's class) to being seen as an invincible fighter, due to 1, maybe 2, fights.

 

Indeed.

Maybe this is how come foreman appear uniquely inexperienced for a champion to be against Ali?

On paper at least I think Quarry win over Foster in 1970 was better than Foremans win over Chuvalo.

I don't understand how Foreman did not drop lower in 71 or 72?