Does anyone believe Fraziers greatness took a hit with his losses to Foreman?

This is simply not true and no matter how you spin it it will remain so.

 

He fought in a tournament which contained the best contenders of the moment, except for Frazier, and won. He beat Martin, Bonavena, Quarry and Patterson after that. That's not enough for him to be considered the no.1 contender, but for Foreman to be considered no.2 all it took was a win over a guy who, as you pointed out, lost to pretty much every big name he ever fought?

 

The wins that pit Frazier in the ratings was the Jones, machen, chuvalo and bonnavena wins. Frazier i was already #1 contender in 1967 just off that. The rest of the contenders took part in a good tournament that was won -fair and square -by Ellis. Ellis eliminated bonnavena, Martin, quarry then defended against Patterson. Terrell was eliminated by Spencer who was eliminated by quarry. Quarry was eliminated by Ellis. Frazier beat both Ellis and quarry by KO. Mathis was an unbeaten prospect not included in the tournament but he would beat chuvalo and Amos Lincoln. I can't think who Frazier missed out who had not already been eliminated from being relevent to the current scene?

 

you don't think facing Quary, bonnavena, Frazier, Ellis, Mac Foster, Mathis back to back is better than Foremans group of unrated guys between chuvalo and terry sorrell?

 

What you or I say does not matter, it is where he was actually rated that matters.In the tournament he beat Martin , Bonavena and Quarry in the final .It was you who used it as justification to make him number one.I never mentioned Foreman's status.

 

You start a thread, but when you don't get the replies you want you start insulting posters and spitting your dummy out.
You are an illiterate moron whose opinion is of no consequence to anyone.
You cannot write a sentence without being insulting ,nor can you string one together that is both coherent and without spelling mistakes, so no need to trouble myself with your infantile input.

 

Neither Jones nor Machen were rated when Frazier beat them.
You talk about the WBA tournament as though I didn't know it had occurred.

I know Martin suffered a badly lacerated lip against Ellis, I watched Ellis outpoint Quarry as it happened in a snore bore final. I know the sequence of events.That Terrell was really a spent force after Ali.That Spencer went off the rails after his win and paid the price against Quarry, that Quarry went into the Ellis fight with a bad back ,that Dundee told Ellis ,just win this , you can look good in the next one,[which he didn't and only a very controversial call from Harold Valan kept his crown] .

I was around then and either watched those bouts or read about them as they occurred. Coming up Frazier did not fight
Folley
Patterson
Cooper
Mildenberger
Lincoln
Spencer
Liston
Corletti
Terrell
Spencer
Lewis
Peralta
Foster
Jones
That's 14 rated during his climb .
Once he had more or less made it he could have, but did not meet.
Urtain
Garcia
Shavers
Lyle
Bobick
Clark
Norton* [please dont say they were friends as an excuse for it not happening friends meet all the time Ali/Ellis Shufford/Brown etc]
That makes 21 possible rated contenders that Frazier did not meet, 21 men he did not clean out.

 

You have such big hands for such a small man. Read on...

You're not great at guessing, so I'll fill you in. BI- the only publication at this time that featured a comprehensive monthly rating system (i.e. Top 50) had both Luis Pires and Miguel Angel Paez rated ahead of Terry Daniels by the end of 1971. So, Frazier was 'bottom feeding' even below a young Foreman by 1972..."The Sphincter of the Month club" it could have been known as.

At the time of the rematch, Peralta was rated top 10 by Boxing News, Boxing Illustrated, the WBC and the WBA- a fairly comprehensive list. The Ring had Jose Urtain instead!!! Incidentally, Peralta would stop Urtain soon after, proving which publications were the most accurate. Then again, Ring struggled in the 1970s, often fooled by hype and brown envelopes...maybe that's why they were ripe in having their ratings exposed later in the decade. :yep

 

It always makes me laugh when Foreman gets stick for not koing Peralta in their first fight.Peralta was only stopped 3 times in over100 fights, one on a cut, once by George.Peralta was having his 91st fight George his 16th and he skated the decision.
Peralta had drawn with Bonavena in his previous outing.

Ron Lyle could not put an old Peralta away in 2 tries, in fact in Peralta's last fight at the age of 38 , he drew with Lyle.

 

Did anyone ever "clean out" the heavyweight division ?
There's always someone left to fight.

 

Everyone is not in question ,Joe Frazier's claims for doing it are.
And may I say ,twenty one possible rated contenders is a lot to miss.

 

Peralta was a clever, tricky fighter and no one was ever to keen to take him on. It's a pity his day in the limelight was cancelled (the title shot with Jimmy Ellis) as it would have been an interesting match-up in the late 1960s. The bout was shelved due to lack of public interest....it seems like "the man in the street" didn't really know much about Jimmy Ellis after all. :yep

 

Is it ?
How many is normal ?
How many did Muhammad Ali miss c. 1962 - '67 ?
(to use a historically close example).