Does anyone believe Fraziers greatness took a hit with his losses to Foreman?

There are never more than two or three outstanding fighters around at anyone time. The quarry, Ellis and Ali fights were all to determine who was the best heavyweight in the world. Like klitschko vs klitschko. Hence cleaning out the division. Showdowns. Any fights outside of those even against curent rated fighters would not determine who was the best in the world. Worthless demonstrations of world dominance. Do you think a champion needs worthless demonstrations of world dominance to clean out? Did Louis need Johnny paycheck as much as he needed max Schmeling to clean out? Both were rated but only one prevented Louis being called the best until he beat him.

I can't see how you have Cleveland big cat Williams as your #22 ATG heavyweight yet think Frazier was only great one night?

 

Frazier was a slow burner without TYsons publicity machine but he still realised undisputed world dominance. After Ali nobody was left. That's what people thought after TFOTC anyway. Nobody expected George Foreman to be THAT good. Frazier had wound up the previous period before meeting Foreman.

How many of TYsons fights were to determine the actual best heavyweight? Just the spinks fight. Quarry, Ellis and ALi were all worthy deciders for Frazier.

 

That is the opinion of Herb Goldman not me.

NB Frazier only fought 7 rated opponents in his career.

Bottom line people should not make statements like he cleaned out the division when he obviously did not.

 

That is more than Sonny Liston. And some rate Sonny in their top ten ATG.

 

Frazier beat a fair crop of fighters on the way to unifying the title and beating Ali in their first fight. Between FOTC and the first Foreman fight,Joe avoided a rematch with Ali like the plague and was virtually semi retired !

No disrespect to Frazier,who I admired,but I'm just stating a fact.

 

Frazier paid his dues before that though. 71 Ali 73 Foreman. It is only 1972 he did not fight his #1 and the #2 (ALi) was overshadowing the #1 in 1972 by some degree.

 

Between Ali and before Foreman he fought two unranked fighters over a two year period,What relevance did they have ?

 

Some rate Frazier in their top ten ,if he isnt in mine he would be around no11!
That has no relevance to the original statement.
btw Liston fought an equal amount of rated contenders.
Liston had he been given the opportunity could probably have been champ in 1959 but Floyd was busy defending against lesser opponents and tying up the title for two years with Ingo who would not go in the same room as Liston.
Liston won the title from the champ by a 1 rd ko and repeated the feat when the dethroned champ was his no 1 contender, maybe thats why he is in peoples top ten?

N.B.Career- wise ,Liston fought 15 men rated at one time or another,Frazier 10.

 

Prove it wrong.

 

I decided to have a look at where Mathis was ranked when he fought Frazier last night, from the BI issue "Frazier-Mathis title fight a joke". He was ranked 34th! Even below our old mate Dave Zyglewicz".

 

And never ever ranked by The Ring, yet Choklab recognises Frazier as champ from 1968? They say those that point out who Frazier did NOT fight have an agenda.I say those that excuse him defending against two unranked fighters in two years and claim that he cleaned out his division, are those with the agenda.

 

Yes, well, I think we know the reality is that contemporary viewpoints are stronger than rose-tinted fiction don't you (Cue: "the man the street" ).

FYI. The main thing Boxing Illustrated where criticised about was not rating Ali as champ in 1968 but Ellis. Abe Glick ran an editorial "Ellis, not Frazier, the champ", stating that he felt the NYSAC had insulted the great champions of the past by dignifiying this bout with a "championship label" (or words to that effect).

They weren't anti-Frazier and indeed rated him #1 before the WBA tourney and wanted him to be part of it but questioned that maybe Durham took an honest look at Joe's experience at the time and that he may not have been ready for some of the contenders in the tourney, highliting the risk factor and added that he thought Joe has a "suspect chin". :yep

Interestingly, Archie Moore comments on the scene in same issue, saying while he thought Ellis was the champ, fancied Frazier to "press Ellis into collapse in three or four rounds" but Joe should avoid Liston and that if he walked into Sonny "somebody would have to carry Joe away".