Does anyone believe Fraziers greatness took a hit with his losses to Foreman?

thats not what I said, I said ingo eclipsed anything Liston did in 1959 with the machen win. Even though it was 1958 ingo beat machen it still applies, by 1959 ingo deserved a challenge ahead of sonny. Nobody liston beat by then was rated higher than he was. Sonny climbed the ranks doing what you accuse Frazier of doing prior to 1969, getting a ranking before beating a rated fighter. What is good for the goose....

 

In1959 Liston had 3 fights

Dejohn #9 contender on the year but unranked at the time because he lost to valdes
Wiiliams unranked
Valdes unranked, alonzo johnson taking his ranking previously.

In 1958 ingo fought 3 times

Erskine #7 contender.
Neuhaus unranked
Machen #1 contender.

 

Funny how you've not been reduced to comparing Frazier's undisputed heavyweight championship opponents with Liston's 'marking time' fighters. Then again, I hardly expect anything else from you.

Both the top 2 and bottom 2 ar similar (Daniels/Westphal just creeping into the top 50; King and Stander a bit more respectful but hardly title-shot worthy....but then again King and Westphal weren't given one :hey).
King had floored Folley and taken Moore to a draw even...what had Stander done again? I haven't seen anything of Westphal, other than him being chased around the ring by Sonny...but with Daniels being ranked #44th, I can't imagine his was much different.

Re: 1959. The likes of Marciano, Teddy Brenner were already very impressed by Liston, after the Valdes fight Boxing Illustrated called him "far and away the best heavyweight in the world" and then added something they'd been "saying for a year".

I've never mentioned his deserved a shot in 1959 by the way, 1960 was a good time...like I said for for Liston 1960, see Frazier 68-69; neither was world champion and both had beaten fighters ranked in the top 3 or so (for Folley and Machen see Quarry and Bonavena), the feeling was both would beat the champion and they were proven right. As early as mid-1960, BI predicted Liston would flatten Floyd "inside 5 rounds". Too big, too strong, hits too hard (aspects that makes you cry inside, I know :yep). They were more than right- even in the last ever era of the 'smaller heavyweight' Floyd was considered a cheese champion and not strong enough...in another good call by BI...they said Ingo would knock out Floyd when they first met.

The argument that Frazier was the real champ in 68/69 is hardly backed up by who he fought- both Quarry and Bonavena had alreay been beaten by Ellis. Like I said earlier, Frazier may have been the better fighter, like Liston, but neither was yet 'the champ'.

 

Yes it is. See below...

As mentioned by Mac, how can he not be threat in 1959 when he was #3...in the Ring....added to this, he was also #3 with the NBA, #2 with Boxing Illustrated.

 

As this thread has gotten me back into reading my old BI issues, here for the record (or amusement) are its rankings of some of Frazier's "world" *cough* title opposition...

• Buster Mathis: #34 (ranked about five places below Johnny Mathis)
• Dave Ziglewicz: #34 (almost what his name would be worth in scrabble)
• Terry Daniels: #44 (beaten by the fighter ranked #43 incidentally, otherwise known as 'that big scary looking bloke from Superman II')
• Ron Stander: #31 (Reached the dizzy heights of 25 but was spanked by a man named "Rico").

For completeness Ramos #6, Quarry and Oscar were both 3; Ringo had been ranked behind Patterson (and Liston for the record) in Q3 of 1968, but Floyd managed to get a shot at more respected alphabet strap and fought Ellis shortly before the Frazier-Bonavena fight, his disputed loss bumped Ringo above him.

 

Who mentioned 1958?

Dejohn was ranked when Liston kod him.

From 1959 until 1960 Liston had the best resume by far of the heavyweight contenders.

Dejohn
Williams
Valdes
Besmanoff
King
Williams
Harris
Folley
Machen
Only Machen made it to the last bell.
The idea that he was not a threat or did not merit a title shot is absurd.

 

But Foreman didn't land first. Joe did. Good right hand moments into the fight.

The loss can be broken down into three key factors:

1) Joe was overconfident and underprepared
2) Joe could not defend himself at all from Foreman's titanic punches
3) Joe could not stop Foreman's momentum, despite landing at least two hard, clean hooks.


In my book it takes knock, sure. Truthfully, no ATG should be dominated that easily by another man.
But I do give Joe something of a pass as well. For one, the vast body of his work had already been completed and he had already gained his most significant victory and two, Foreman was made to destroy short guys. I've no doubt Rocky Marciano would have met the same fate had he met Foreman.

 

Good points. I also believe that Mike Tyson would have met a similar fate at the hand of a 1973/74 Foreman.

 

How far does your collection of BI mags go back ? I've still got a few left over from the seventies. Dust collectors,as my wife calls them

 

I took a few Ring magazines from the 50's out of a cabinet yesterday, just to check on some monthly ratings. I've never thrown a boxing mag away.Must be a saddo.

 

Joe Frazier beat a lot of bums .... but Muhammad Ali wasn't one of them, was he ?

Manuel Mathis and Buster Chuvalo might only have been rated #67 and #78 in the world at the time .... but Ali is rated #1 of ALL-TIME .... so that's got to count for something, no ?

 

I am not sure. Shorter guys hit George from angles he did not expect. If they could land on the way in they actually troubled him. Lucky for him Frazier was no longer at the stage where he could land on the way in so he fared particularly baddly against Foreman because he was walking through shots in order to land' suicide against George!


5'9 George scrap iron johnson lasted 7 rounds against Foreman.

5'10 Ted Gullick out landed Foreman but could not hurt George.

Dwight Quawi at 5'7, who came in with a strapped knee and under prepared hit Foreman 3-1.

Everett big foot martin was short and took Foreman all the way.

 

A good run for sure but most were not rated. The 1960 wins were what counted. Harris, folley and machen were real contenders but hes not getting a shot ahead of Patterson in 1960 or ingo in 61.


Dejohn lost his rating to valdes ahead of his fight with Liston.
Valdes lost his rating to alonzo johnson ahead of his fight with Liston.

Williams, bessmanoff and king were known but not real contenders.