Does anyone believe Fraziers greatness took a hit with his losses to Foreman?

Very funny post!
Johnson was given a total of 1 rd on one judges scorecard otherwise it was a blow out all of the 6 completed rds.
Johnson also went 7 rds with Liston 2 years earlier,did Liston have trouble with short guys?

Johnson went 10 rds to the distance with Frazier, how about Smokin Joe did short men trouble him?
Gullick was 6' ,he lasted a round and a half against Foreman ,George must have been real troubled?

Against Qawi ,Foreman was 39 years old he stopped him in 7 rds how much trouble is that? For Martin,[who was just under 6',] Foreman was 40 years old ,he dropped Martin in the 8th and took an easy decision. To steal a line from Wise Guys,you're a funny guy !!!:rofl:rofl:rofl

 

But not the best Ali .

 

Wasn't Frazier pushing for an automatic shot about the time ALi retired? If I were managing a fighter like that I would do what Yank did. The way I look at it the rest of the contenders fought each other to determine who fights Frazier in a vacant title fight in much the way baker,valdes and Jackson fought to determine who would fight Archie Moore after marciano retired. Trouble was the WBA complicated the whole thing and included too many fighters. Looking back Frazier beat all the guys that mattered. ALI, Frazier and Ellis all beat bonnavena and Quarry but Frazier also beat ALi and Ellis too. When all is said and done Frazier dominated that limbo period against good and great fighters. ALI, Ellis and quarry. It is a clean sweep.

 

" One swallow does not a summer make".

 

But it was only his 1960 wins that cemented "automatic title shot" status. 1961 was the earliest sonny could have fought for the title. 1959 was too early to demand automatic status. Had Sonny got machen in 58 he could have demanded it. There is no saying sonny would have done as well in 58 against an unbeaten machen as he did two years later against the machen he did fight who had 12 more fights wear and tear with two extra loses than he had against ingo in 58?

 

You just keep repeating that to yourself.

 

Indeed, my magazine collection has been reduced to loft space...but I've enjoyed dusting some of the old issues down. . My BI collection goes back to some of first ones from the late 1950s. Most of the 60s, 70s and 80s...and up until it became Boxing Digest in the mid-90s- i think the last BI issue was an excellent Roy Jones analysis written by the great Budd Schulberg. I reckon i've got about 90% of the issues from 1958-1995. It's particularly useful for its top 50- in each division, something they started in the mid-60s. In the 1970s it should have been called AI (Ali Illustrated). :hey I'm not throwing them away- they're great and hardly in anybody's way...and I can't stand 'innacuracy', so this needs to be addressed.

Well, Yank knew in 67 that Frazier wasn't ready for Ali, he'd have surely given it another year had Ali remained active. Again, the are similarities with Liston's timelines. See below:

1958: Liston enters top 10 very late in year (1966 Frazier does)
1959: become title thread (1967 Frazier)
1960: become the best contender in division (1968 Frazier)
1961: overdue a title shot (1969 Frazier)

The only difference is, Liston is slightly further down the pecking order because Floyd had been beaten...so as ex-champ, has the next shot, just like, say, Ali would have been in 67 if, say Terrell, had beaten him. There's not a world of difference in what stage they were at, at all. Also, if we consider Ali as champ in 1968, then Ellis would have done more to earn a title shot by the end of that year- beating Martin, Quarry, Patterson and Bonavena (if we forget all the titles- paper or otherwise) just like Johansson had done more by 1959. Both Liston and Joe were both the outstanding 'contender' two years before they fought for the title- a real title that is.

 

Oh, come on, it's hardly a 'flash knockdown'- Clay was badly hurt.

 

He was certainly on '***** Street' as the Americans call it. Muhammad often said that 'Enery's 'Ammer was the hardest he'd been hurt until being caught by Frazier's left hook in the FOTC.