Haye vs. Ali: Make a convincing case for Haye

Bummy Davis · Oct 12, 2013

Haye would not see the final bell

Barry Smith · Oct 12, 2013

Max_Power said: ↑

All of you guys DO realise how much stronger Haye is than Ali don't you?
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What makes you think Haye is stronger?

Ali's size is natural whereas Haye is a naturally skinny guy who has taken a lot of steroids and lifted a lot of weights from a young age to get to over 200lbs.

ribtickler68 · Oct 12, 2013

Max_Power said: ↑

All of you guys DO realise how much stronger Haye is than Ali don't you? They are same height and weight and all, both are fast etc but Haye enjoys 3 times the physical strength and punching power as Ali!

Ali is a MASSIVE underdog in this fight from the get go!

See the guys Haye sparred with lately preparing for Fury? They are absolute monsters compared to the guys Ali had to fight mostly!
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Maxie, baby! I am not a fan of Ali but watch the Foreman fight. Ali manhandles Foreman on the inside and George was a beast(as you have admitted in the past)! Haye and Ali may be similar in weight but Ali is a bigger man by nature. Haye has used weights and modern nutrition to build up to his weight to what it is; Ali did traditional boxing and nothing else.

Haye is not a big man like Ali or Holmes, that's why he has done so much weight training. I believe Ali would be stronger(the 1974 Ali, I mean) than Haye. I don't rate Haye at all, as you know. He'd struggle with Holyfield or Michael Spinks, similar sized men!

ribtickler68 · Oct 12, 2013

Max_Power said: ↑

Well fair enough but I will trust the raw poundages and reps that a subjective assessment and the visual image of bodybuilder Haye.

Sure I don't think Haye is throwing Ali around or anything like that. But I also don't think Ali is gonna be pushing Haye's head down or hugging him.

You WILL make an admission on Haye's punching power for me though wont you rib??? :yep

He could punch a hole in your Ali!
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Haye is a true puncher because he gets great leverage into his blows. He wouldn't be punching a hole through the Ali of the Foreman fight, no. I accept the point about other versions of Ali being susceptible, yes.

Max, I have boxed and weight trained at different times in my life, and there is a difference between natural strength and gym strength. I have seen guys in the gym who can lift prodigious weights but lack functional strength in the ring. No doubt Haye could out lift Ali in a weights session, but in a ring and in a clinch, Ali of 74 would be stronger. I repeat; he manhandled Foreman.

Unforgiven · Oct 12, 2013

Max_Power said: ↑

On Haye's appearance, google David Haye, go to images and you wont have to scroll far before you encounter what he looks like up close. He is bulging with muscle and ripped to the core like a body builder. Ali is lean and ropy.
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I've seen them both in person. Haye's not very big. He has quite a skinny neck and his wrists and hands aren't like a true heavyweight. He's built himself up by his frame is kind of slender.
I was young when I saw Ali in 1986, but I still swear he was bigger than what Haye is.

cross_trainer · Oct 12, 2013

Stevie G said: ↑

I've tried but I can't !

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It's do-able. You just need to start from some very different premisses than most people accept.

For instance:

"We begin with the observation that modern athletes are far better trained than their predecessors. As many have pointed out, records have climbed steadily upward since the 1960s in every measurable sport. They have done so because modern people understand how the body responds to training much better than trainers in the 1960s. See, for instance, Tudor Bompa's books on periodization and/or any modern textbook from a reputable personal training certification org. This isn't all that debatable anymore, since we have the studies.

And then, there are steroids. Take a look at Evander Holyfield's regimen to prepare for the first Tyson fight. (http://www.sportsci.org/news/news9709/hatfield.html). It was novel at the time, but it's standard now. Notice the incredible volume of work -- three training sessions a day, sparring every day, weight training five days a week, conditioning 4-6 days a week, AND high impact plyo stuff. Compare that to Ali's workouts, where he describes long, relatively slow runs six days a week, some calisthenics, and boxing skills in the afternoons/evenings. (Also six days a week, to Evander's seven). Modern fighters can fit a lot more training intensity into their days.

Finally, there's common sense. If modern training methods don't work, you wonder why top-flight heavyweight boxers have almost universally switched.

When we get to heavyweights, we also notice that height and weight have increased. The top 10 has grown a slight but noticeable amount since the 1960s -- an inch or two when you compare ca. 1970 and the late 2000's. Some old-time fans will claim that modern fighters are just clumsy guys like Carnera. Or worse, that they're artifacts of a dying sport where fighters pack on mass rather than learning skill. This is unlikely. Modern fighters are just the products of a taller, heavier talent pool. Human height has stayed pretty constant in the USA, but it's grown in Europe since the 1960s. Even the 1960-1980 period registered growth in the tallest segments of Europe's population: the Northern countries. The overall effect has increased heavyweight size.

Has skill declined? That's another claim that old-time fans make, and it has a little more bite. But consider the following: (1) boxing skills in the lower weight classes don't seem to have noticeably declined, and they have the same trainers as the heavyweights; (2) modern fighters can get away with all the elaborate modern training and still work on their boxing skills six or seven days a week. (3) punching mitts have been invented. It's not a quantum leap or anything, but it's arguably better than either heavy bag training or shadowboxing. It allows fighters to learn timing, distance, and technical patterns without getting damaged in sparring. And that brings me to (4): better protection. The gloves, safety equipment, and safety-oriented rules in amateur boxing, which some fighters stay in for hundreds of fights, have improved. Even professional glove sizes have increased, which makes defense easier and reduces the impact when punches do land. The overengineered foam 20 oz. gloves that heavyweights use in sparring probably have better protective qualities as well. All that means that heavyweights can develop their skills over a longer time scale, without getting their brains damaged as much through attrition.

Haye, like Ali, dominated a cruiserweight-sized division in his early career. The difference? These guys were generally far better trained physically than Ali's foes.

When we get to styles, we notice that Haye's abilities negate a lot of Ali's traditional advantages. He's basically the same size, and has close to the same reach. He also has the reflexes and handspeed to make things interesting..."
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Something like that, anyway.

I have to disagree with a lot of comments made in this thread, though.

On one hand, a bodybuilder's physique doesn't really suggest that Haye is a stronger man. It just suggests that he's used weights. If anything, bodybuilding is a less effective protocol for building strength than the various powerlifting programs. And Haye's weight training doesn't make him necessarily stronger than Ali. Ali was able to move all sorts of naturally strong guys around. Manhandle them, even.

Superior physical training doesn't mean that every elite modern fighter is stronger (or faster, or harder-hitting) than every elite 1970s fighter. It certainly doesn't mean that you can point to Haye and say "See? He's stronger than Ali because he lifts weights!" It just means that the division as a whole is stronger.

If you want to evaluate Haye specifically, you need to make a more general statement: Haye has managed to deal with a generally better-trained division than Ali faced. That's certainly a point in his favor, but it's not the same as saying that he's more athletic. For all we know, Haye's a relative weakling who's only managed to beat everybody because he has other abilities. You need to look at in-ring performances to make those sorts of judgments. But it does suggest a certain level of quality.

And let's not forget that you can be naturally stronger than a guy who's done a lot of strength training. That's what strength training is supposed to do: level the playing field between a stronger fighter and a weaker one. You don't think that Ali's years of boxing conditioning, wrestling in clinches, healthy eating, and generally being a big guy made a difference in his strength levels? I certainly do.

That's not even getting into Ali's experience in the clinch. I've seen little guys move around much larger opponents in judo, and you can see it in other sports as well -- boxing, Muay Thai, etc. If Ali can mandhandle Foreman, he can mandhandle Haye.

On the other hand, I disagree with those who say that "gym strength" doesn't translate to boxing. It does if you've trained your boxing skills enough. It's the sparring / skill work that matters. You can see that in all sorts of sports -- boxing, but also sports with heavier grappling components like judo, wrestling, BJJ. (We are talking about the clinch, after all). Fighters who can lift a lot more weight are stronger, but they need to develop the motor patterns. For that, there's no substitute for sparring.

I would also like to see studies that say that weight training does not improve punching power. Everything I remember reading on the subject says that maximal strength does play a role in developing power, and even speed. Hence sprinters using weights.

I also disagree with the high-octane engine analogy. If anything, a better conditioned athlete burns through his energy more slowly than an athlete with inferior conditioning. I don't see much evidence that Haye is throwing powerpunch after powerpunch at a rate that 1970s fighters couldn't sustain. It's more just a question of not training stamina as much as he should.

(With that being said, modern fighters' main advantage does lie in their ability to throw hard shots more frequently. Not endlessly. I suspect that's why punchstats haven't climbed that much since the 1970s -- each individual shot is more damaging, but they're throwing similar numbers of punches. The volume of damage has increased rather than the volume of punches thrown.)

markclitheroe · Oct 12, 2013

IF both at peak..landslide points win for Ali.

Vinegar Hill · Oct 12, 2013

I just can't make any case for Haye against any Version of Ali. Haye has got reasonable speed and decent power. Ali however took The blows of Foreman, Shavers, Liston, Lyle ,Frazier and many others so who the f*** is David Haye?
Haye is a very conservative fighter slow on his feet with a very low punch rate.
The fighters who gave Ali trouble were busy fighters with a high punch rate. Haye is neither.
This would be easy for Ali.

HOUDINI · Oct 12, 2013

Maybe now I've heard it all? Haye is not a good fighter let alone great. Ali at the very least second greatest ever to live. Ali at his best wins a one sided thrashing against a good looking athlete who can't fight a lick.

HOUDINI · Oct 12, 2013

Cross trainer like many of his kind forgets it's all about being great at FIGHTING. Great fighters are great at doing just that....not looking cut, not being able to lift a huge weight, not being bigger. Ali like Louis, Dempsey, Tunney, Marciano etc were great tough highly skilled fighters with wills to win to never quit no matter how a fight was going. That's what being a great fighter is all about. It's lost however in the MMA type mindset of today's young and inexperienced boxing fans.

ribtickler68 · Oct 12, 2013

cross_trainer said: ↑

It's do-able. You just need to start from some very different premisses than most people accept.

For instance:

Something like that, anyway.

I have to disagree with a lot of comments made in this thread, though.

On one hand, a bodybuilder's physique doesn't really suggest that Haye is a stronger man. It just suggests that he's used weights. If anything, bodybuilding is a less effective protocol for building strength than the various powerlifting programs. And Haye's weight training doesn't make him necessarily stronger than Ali. Ali was able to move all sorts of naturally strong guys around. Manhandle them, even.

Superior physical training doesn't mean that every elite modern fighter is stronger (or faster, or harder-hitting) than every elite 1970s fighter. It certainly doesn't mean that you can point to Haye and say "See? He's stronger than Ali because he lifts weights!" It just means that the division as a whole is stronger.

If you want to evaluate Haye specifically, you need to make a more general statement: Haye has managed to deal with a generally better-trained division than Ali faced. That's certainly a point in his favor, but it's not the same as saying that he's more athletic. For all we know, Haye's a relative weakling who's only managed to beat everybody because he has other abilities. You need to look at in-ring performances to make those sorts of judgments. But it does suggest a certain level of quality.

And let's not forget that you can be naturally stronger than a guy who's done a lot of strength training. That's what strength training is supposed to do: level the playing field between a stronger fighter and a weaker one. You don't think that Ali's years of boxing conditioning, wrestling in clinches, healthy eating, and generally being a big guy made a difference in his strength levels? I certainly do.

That's not even getting into Ali's experience in the clinch. I've seen little guys move around much larger opponents in judo, and you can see it in other sports as well -- boxing, Muay Thai, etc. If Ali can mandhandle Foreman, he can mandhandle Haye.

On the other hand, I disagree with those who say that "gym strength" doesn't translate to boxing. It does if you've trained your boxing skills enough. It's the sparring / skill work that matters. You can see that in all sorts of sports -- boxing, but also sports with heavier grappling components like judo, wrestling, BJJ. (We are talking about the clinch, after all). Fighters who can lift a lot more weight are stronger, but they need to develop the motor patterns. For that, there's no substitute for sparring.

I would also like to see studies that say that weight training does not improve punching power. Everything I remember reading on the subject says that maximal strength does play a role in developing power, and even speed. Hence sprinters using weights.

I also disagree with the high-octane engine analogy. If anything, a better conditioned athlete burns through his energy more slowly than an athlete with inferior conditioning. I don't see much evidence that Haye is throwing powerpunch after powerpunch at a rate that 1970s fighters couldn't sustain. It's more just a question of not training stamina as much as he should.

(With that being said, modern fighters' main advantage does lie in their ability to throw hard shots more frequently. Not endlessly. I suspect that's why punchstats haven't climbed that much since the 1970s -- each individual shot is more damaging, but they're throwing similar numbers of punches. The volume of damage has increased rather than the volume of punches thrown.)
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I can guarantee that Haye couldn't fight at the speed that Ali and Frazier fought in 1971! I also question some modern training methods: There are some exercises that mimic the action of throwing a punch; one has a weight at the end of a bar and the fighter throws a right hand so many times. Why "mimic" the action of a punch when a heavy bag is resistance against a real punch?

I think some of the modern training and certainly the nutrition is an improvement, but I think some things will come and go, too. I question the assertion that fighters are punching harder now, too. Who punches harder than Shavers or Foreman at Heavyweight or Briscoe at Middleweight? There are punchers in every era.

Anyway, the real question is how does Haye beat Ali when Liston, Foreman and others failed?

Pachilles · Oct 12, 2013

HOUDINI said: ↑

Maybe now I've heard it all? Haye is not a good fighter let alone great. Ali at the very least second greatest ever to live. Ali at his best wins a one sided thrashing against a good looking athlete who can't fight a lick.
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you just call Haye good looking?:rofl:rofl:rofl BATTY MAN

Fnatic · Oct 12, 2013

Ali stronger than Haye. :-(

People claiming Ali's wins the physical strength battle because he rope a doped against Foreman. :rofl

What about 242 lbs Wlad, 254 lbs Harrison, 247 lbs Chisora.

Haye was holding his own strength wise against those three who were much bigger than 218 Foreman.

Also you could make a case, Ali's been hurt and down by lesser punchers and finishers than Haye and was on ***** street against Wepner ffs.

I don't want to upset you "experts" but the guy was not invincible like you make him out to be hence his 5 (You could argue 6) losses.

rusak · Oct 12, 2013

ribtickler68 said: ↑

No doubt Haye could out lift Ali in a weights session, but in a ring and in a clinch, Ali of 74 would be stronger. I repeat; he manhandled Foreman.
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Even if Ali of 74 would be stronger, neither of them is an inside fighter, so what is the relevance of this? What would they be doing in a clinch in the first place?

rusak · Oct 12, 2013

Vinegar Hill said: ↑

Haye is a very conservative fighter slow on his feet with a very low punch rate.
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No, that's plainly false.

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