Joe Calzaghe v Roy Jones Jnr 2002

Roy made it abundantly clear that he didn't want to go to Germany.

Why should Roy have had to travel to Germany?

It was DM who said he was now willing to go to America in the late 90's.

How many more times?

The double header was to introduce DM to the U.S. Fans, and to hype the fight.

It was good business sense.

Are you suggesting that if DM and Kohl had've accepted, that they wouldn't have discussed details for a fight afterwards?

It was Kohl who said "If you're not prepared to come to Germany, then you better make us a good offer to go to America."

That's when Davis tried to arrange a meeting to discuss figures, only for Kohl to purposely ignore him, like a child.

That's why Davis faxed the proposal of the double header across.


Ha!

Do you want me to try and bump the thread?

I destroyed the list one by one, and then did a full breakdown including stats, and you said that you'd copied it from another source.

The other names on the list were Iran Barkley, Tim Littles and Vincenzo Nardiello.


The whole list was complete bull****.

 

Bat,

I've found the thread, and it can be bumped if you wish?

It was actually from last December, not last year.

It's up to you?

The thread is titled - Discuss fighters that Jones Jr ducked in his prime.

You gave a list of 13 fighters who were supposedly deserving of a fight, who Roy missed whilst he was at 168.

I've just read it.

It's not clear, whether you've said it's your own list consisting of The Ring Magazine's ratings, or whether the Ring magazine had compiled the list.

If you compiled it yourself, then apologies.

But either way, 13 names were just tossed around, without any real thought behind them.

I went through the 13, and proved that 6 of the fighters weren't deserving.

That's half of the list, just about.

I've got page numbers and post numbers.


It's all good fun at the end if the day, but I didn't want to debate all of the names again, when we've already had a good go at it.


I think we've discussed other fighters who Roy missed at other weights too, but it was the 13 guys at 168, that I was referring too earlier.


But like I say, it's only a bit of fun.

 

Mentioning Ruiz only makes your arguement worse. He was handpicked because of his atrocious skills, power, and fighting style. Beating him didn't make history either. He had to fight Lennox to do that but didn't

 

Ruiz was a paper champion... NOT a legitimate belt holder. He was handed the title due to his connections with corrupt King... King wanted to tap into the Latino market and used Ruiz as a means to achieve this. Ruiz only won high profile fights due to cheating tactics such as hitting& holding, Excessive clinching(people who complain about Wlad NEED to watch some Ruiz fights) faking low blows etc... all made possible by the 1 and only Don King! Lets not forget about all of those gifts he got.. Ruiz was a glorified club fighter and not a LEGITIMATE hw champion...

Roy beating him was NOT one of the greatest wins of all time... Like Rico said, Ruiz was HANDPICKED by Roy and his handlers due to his lack of skill and punching power...

 

so how come only roy stepped up from LMW to HW to face him, if this is all true?

in fact, its not all true, and ONLY one man did it.

 

Why are you giving Roy a pass? DM was the champ. Roy was the no. 1 contender.

Yeah. To fight Roy Jones. Not on a Roy Jones undercard for peanuts when he was making millions in Germany.

To who? Not DM thats for sure.

DM offers to fight Jones in Germany. Jones offers DM an undercard slot in the US. :yep

Bump it if you want. And you didn't destroy the point of the list at all. How many top 3 opponents did Jones face? As the top p4p'er surely he's faced and beaten a lot right?

 

The Ruiz win gets massively overrated by the Ripped Fuel brigade. Just imagine what Billy Conn or Bob Foster would have done to that mediocre HW. Jones win was above average, perhaps even a good win, but dont pretend that it was anything special.

 

If it was that easy then why other guys from the lower weights queuing up to fight Ruiz and get a huge pay day?

 

Bailey,

Except, all that was in the past, and he had nothing to do with WBC. Again, at the time of negotiations, Roy held all the belts. Nothing you say will change that.

That had no relevance in 2001, when they tried to make the fight. Fairly or unfairly, Roy had all of the major belts around his waist at that point.

Again, so what? The bigger crowd on the night would probably have been in Germany. Because the majority of the biggest fights held in the U.S. are in Vegas at places like the MGM, in front of crowds of around 16,000. So I would say the crowd in Germany would have been bigger. Which means what exactly? That Roy should have travelled?

In 2001, Roy was the CHAMP.

I'm not playing your silly yes or no game, because as you know, it's not as simple as that.

Every fighter has a different set of circumstances surrounding them.

There's no chopping and changing to suit, it's just circumstances, which you never allow for. It's you who always tries to do like for like comparisons with fighters at different weights, from different eras. Look at what you've done in the Toney thread yesterday? Comparing a 31 year old Miguel Cotto, to a 31 year old version of Chris Eubank. It's ridiculous!

I said that Joe held a lightly regarded belt, he was relatively unknown, and he was never going to get a a Roy Jones fight for big money in the early 00's. All you can counter with, is that Roy CONSIDERED fighting him. Yes he did, but in the end he wasn't interested and went with other options. So I'm right.

Regarding Collins, Collins was respected, but he wasn't classed as an elite fighter in the U.S. He'd lost all of his big fights while he was based there with Roach, and his claim to fame was beating faded versions of Benn and Eubank. Who else did he beat?

Roy relinquished the IBF, and moved up to 175, because according to himself, Greg Fritz and Stanley Levin, it was too difficult to deal with King. We also know that on the world stage, the WBO back then wasn't respected or ranked by the likes of a The Ring magazine.

So if you look at things logically, there were only 2 realistic scenarios.


1. Roy wasn't bothered about Collins's WBO, and moved up to fight the likes of Hill instead, which was a bigger fight, in every sense.


2. Roy feared Collins when he was 27, and avoided him.


So which one are you going for?


Bearing in mind, that Roy went up to HW at 34, fought Ruiz and wanted Tyson, and has recently being fighting CW's, way past his best, in his 40's.


Working on facts, evaluating all the circumstances, and looking at what Roy did after, the only logical explanation, is that Collins was dismissed.


Who would fight Ruiz at 226 pounds, at 34, after 50 fights, if they feared fighting Collins at 168, when they were 27?

 

Look, if I wanted to, I could dissect every one of your posts, and there'd be hardly anything left.

This whole site is based on opinions.


Poster A - "Wlad would beat Ali easily!"


Poster B - "You must be joking, Wlad could never have beaten Ali!"


Now I post only my opinions sometimes, just like you and everyone else does, on EVERY thread.


But when I quote someone, and use times, dates, weights, politics, and the fighters circumstances etc, that is all FACTUAL and can be backed up on request.


When I posted what Roy was thinking early in 1997, it was from an interview that he gave, and it was actually posted on here. If you want to see it, I'll go away and find it.

These other posters that you've mentioned, are again, Rico, Assassin, and General Zod.

Now Zod was mistaken, and the other two posters have got zero credibility, and have just ran with what you yourself have claimed.

Go and find me a respected, credible poster, that claims that I try to pass only my opinions off, as facts.

Show me.

Everything I write, can be backed up. I've posted countless links on here over the last 18 months.

Here's the thing, me and you have had debates this last week, what we had when I first joined up, over 18 months ago.

We're debating the same things, and in the past you've actually been given evidence that back up my claims.

So now that we're having the same debate, I'm using that old evidence, even though I haven't reposted it again.


I gave you the DM timeline last week, that can all be backed up.


I've quoted Stan Levin etc, that can all be backed up.


I've said that Roy was looking to fight Hill, while he was in camp preparing for Montell Griffin, that can be backed up.


All of the references to Roy's weight loss, and him wanting Tyson can be backed up.


I could go on and on.

It's not just my opinion, and if you actually look carefully at my posts, when I do give my opinion, I actually say, either "I think" at the start of the sentence, or "in my honest opinion" at the end of the sentence.

I'm not saying that ALL my posts are factual, but a lot of them are, and again, they can be backed up on request.

 

I was having fun reading your arguments until the walls of text started :-(

 

So now you've changed your tune, and are saying that a Sanders fight would only have been for a trinket?

Within the last few weeks, you've posted numerous times that Ruiz was just a trinket holder, and questioned why Roy didn't fight Sanders or Byrd instead.

So that just shows your bias.



You're now saying that's all Roy did in every class, and are trying to use circumstances against him.

Was Toney not considered the best 168 fighter?

We know that Kerry Davis, who you've been happy to quote these last few weeks, tried to get HBO the DM fight in the U.S.

That's a fact!

So again, you're just trying to put Roy down unfairly, without allowing for circumstances.

That's how Bailey operates.



Now please answer these two questions.


1. If you give Joe credit for scraping past Hopkins, why don't you give Roy ANY credit for dominating a HW?


2. What do you think of Joe's 9-10 year WBO reign?



Again, you've mentioned Lewis.


If Roy had no intentions of fighting Lewis, then why did Lewis's team bother speaking to Murad?


Why did Lennox even bother speaking to Roy?


Why did he tell Roy, that he probably wasn't going to fight again.


Why did he retire in 2004, saying he'd lost the hunger and the motivation, 6 months after he'd said he was looking to fight another 2-3 times?


Why have we never heard Lewis say that Roy wasn't serious, and he priced himself out etc?



The evidence at hand, doesn't support the theory that Roy never had any intentions of fighting him.

 

Animosity towards Calzaghe on this forum, usually from Americans, is hilarious. He riles you lot.

Would that have happened if he was one of your own?

 

he'd be looking at three losses or wouldn't have won a title.

actually that's a bit strong, he had the ability to win major titles in his mid thirties, so he would have won a major title for a year or two. (only going on what his resume dictates is fact, he was not capable of taking a major title till his mid30s, so don't hate me for telling you whats there in plain truth).

 

Who said I hate you? And where is the "plain truth" in your opinion over a fight that never happened?

2002 would have been too early for Calzaghe, anyway. That wasn't his prime. His prime, as you say, was in his mid 30's. That Calzaghe v the Jones of 2002 is a better debate for those who love to cling onto a hypothetical match-up and give their opinion as fact. Not my thang, sweethear'.