1980"s H-weights..who was biggest wasted talent?

Likewise. You've been a tremendous value to these forums.

Records and newspaper reporting are one thing, opponent consensus another, silent B&W films add yet another layer, then obviously the addition of live sound and/or color in some cases [sometimes still not adequate when somebody with a dark complexion is bleeding], then concurring eyewitness accounts [which is why I trust what Burt and John Garfield recall, because their descriptions of historical bouts they both attended are congruent], then of course, live ringside commentary.

Jerry Quarry offered crucially informative details about Norton's punching during Middleton which could only have been culled after competing against Ken himself. Norton only shared the ring with Shavers for less than two minutes n 1979, so he never got a sense of how Earnie's power was affected as a match went longer, but he did broadcast commentary for longer bouts Shavers had from 1976 to at least Cobb in 1980, and could clearly discern how Earnie's legs were no longer what they had been in earlier years, repeatedly noting that, "His hands are now ahead of his feet." That had nothing to do with the slippery ring surface, but was clearly an issue of diminishing legs. [Contrast that with how he was atypically able to use footwork to actually outmaneuver Henry Clark in Paris.]

Ken factored in the potential for a slippery surface with bad footing when he then went down to San Antonio to administer one of the only two defeats Randy would ever sustain in Texas [Holmes of course being the other], utilizing an off the ropes countering approach which would have worked even if he'd worn leather soled shoes in Detroit, maybe even if the ring surface was ice covered or oil slicked. [Okay, maybe that's an exaggeration, but Norton spared his legs and need to plant a solid base in favor of using veteran skills and smarts to exploit Tex's lack of punching power and neutralize his physical strength by bracing the back against the ropes.] Cobb-Shavers was to Norton what Hagler-Mugabe was to SRL, a scenario where the aging and inactive Ken realized he could exploit Tex's strengths and weaknesses for a career reviving win. He dropped 35 pounds to come in at 218 for Cobb, the only time he scaled under 220 after Ali III. [Unfortunately, he didn't stop there.]

 

not to be pedantic...but wasnt he lighter than that for jimmy young..after ali 3 ?

 

Good catch! 215-1/2. He knew he was going the distance with Jimmy, and prepared accordingly. [That's closer to the weight he should have been for Holmes.]

 

Greg Page.Definitely Greg Page, with Tim Witherspoon and Carl Williams close runner-ups. Pinklon Thomas wasn't as good as advertised, and though Michael Dokes was good, Anubis summed him up perfectly.Mitch Green and Tony Tubbs are also in the running, as well as Jimmy Clark, but more in the background.

 

Hello Anubis you have excellent insight.I was wondering about some comments you made.First,you stated Cobb was very strong,do you feel if he "put his shoulder into it" he would have been a great puncher? How do you get to his level as a pro without learning how to "put his shoulder into it" Second,Shavers always denies,to this day, he trained with weights.Says he developed strength trough farm work and chopping trees.How do you know for sure and what lifts and poundage did he use? Third,do you know anything about Mike Weaver's lifting routine? Thanks.

 

Hi Anubis,do you feel Bert Cooper's lack of reach/height was what caused him defeat against Bowe and Carl Williams? Do you feel if he was off drugs he could have developed a "Tyson" bob and weave style? Why do you think he lost to Mike Moorer and Ray Mercer? Thanks.

 

where's Anubis?

 

I vote for Tony Tucker. He remained a contender for a long time but never really beat anyone to deserve it.

Best wins were Douglas, Norris, and McCall but the Norris and McCall fights could have went either way... Douglas did very well before getting stopped in the 10th round. Norris beat Tucker in a rematch, Yes, Tucker went the distance vs. Tyson and Lewis (Lewis dropped him twice)... so what? If he had something special I never saw it.

Dokes had his time. Witherspoon as well... he even did well when he was past prime. I agree that both could have done more though.

Tubbs and Page had decent skills but were way too lazy during what should have been their best years. I never expected much from them. They showed their skill and toughness while past prime.

Tate, Weaver, Coetzee, Smith, and Berbick all did about as good as they could do IMO.

 

Cooper was about Tyson's height but his reach was 78". He lost because he wasn't as good as Williams, Mercer, Bowe, Foreman, Holyfield, Moorer, and others. He looked awesome vs. guys like Joe Hipp though.

 

I forgot to mention Thomas. Thomas was highly regarded for a short time. He was outworked by Berbick and lost the WBC HW Title, then it was all down hill after that. Stopped in 6 by Tyson, stopped in 7 by Holyfield, stopped in 1 by Morrison. Drugs suck!

Cooney's loss to Holmes should have been a good learning experience, instead Cooney let his career and personal life go to ****.

 

Mark and Frank, many apologies for not having yet been able to reply to your inquiries as I intend to. Rather than send you both PMs, I thought it might be better decorum to let you know on this thread why I haven't responded to your polite inquiries yet.

I've been here, but have been struggling with a ferocious chronic headache most of the time in recent weeks. It's being caused by a treatment resistant cervical misalignment which even oxycodone does nothing to relieve.

Numerous chiropractic adjustments keep reversing themselves, and an over the door cervical traction unit with 20 pounds of weight in the water bag used for 10 to 20 minutes at a time hasn't effectively relieved it yet. In another six hours I'm going in for my fourth acupuncture needling to try releasing some of the muscular tension patterns which are reversing all these adjustments. [I also have the use of a gravity inversion table, but my lower back seems to clench up in protest when I'm hanging upside down.] This has been a frustrating month. [It all started when I mysteriously woke up with a frozen back on the first of June. I've never experienced anything like the last four and a half months.]

Obviously, some of the lengthy posts I coughed up in this thread take some measure of time, thought and concentration [as well as research while I'm composing them], and I can't very well do that when my head hurts so much I can't even see straight, let alone think clearly. I definitely want to provide comparable replies to your questions, because they're good questions, and it's an interesting thread. [I posted that erroneous comment about Cobb being Norton's lowest weight since Ali III at a moment when my head had begun pounding again, making it necessary for doug.ie to correct me on that factoid.]

Trying to answer questions like Doug's about Dokes is a lot more challenging than posting unsolicited opinions, rebuttals, or trying to add information to a discussion. I want to try addressing your curiosity in a way I like my own curiosity to be satisfied. In post #24, I did reviews of Cobb-Dokes I & II to refresh and supplement my recall of other related past events.

Your questions about Cobb, Shavers, Weaver and Biggs are short and simple enough, but being a retired auditor, I demand hard and detailed answers for myself in response to good questions asked of me which I might offer. I had no idea when October began that I'd still be struggling with these issues halfway through the month. I've continued posting, yes, and some of them have been rambling, but trying to provide acceptable feedback to sincere inquisitiveness entails an entirely higher level of responsibility for me. I can only think for myself and my physical pain right now, but when I'm able to focus and concentrate properly again, I intend to provide you the same level of subjective analysis I gave Doug.ie about Dokes.

 

Tillis, Tucker, Williams, Douglas.

All those guys were talented, well schooled fighters. Douglas at his best had great skills. I seen more skill out of him against Tucker and Tyson than I have seen from all the fighters around today.
The problems these guys had was living in an era of yeyo and having greats like Holmes and Tyson looming over them.
If they were areound today with the deciciation of the Klitschkos , nobody would stand a chance , including the Klitschkos.

 

Quick Tillis is an astute overlooked shout, and he had Dundee and Bundini training him during what should have been his peak years. However, he also had a problem which likewise torpedoed the championship aspirations of promising LW Cubanito Perez, ALLERGIES!

It wasn't deliberate substance abuse which ruined him, but a substance abuse problem which wasn't even diagnosed until 1986. Careful medical scrutiny uncovered a severe allergy to milk and eggs. These are well known food allergens, but also a staple of diet for many boxers. The first match James had after ditching those poisons to his system was Tyson, and the dramatic improvement in his stamina was evident, but he was now closing in on 30 with his best potential behind him. 31-9 after Tyson in that era was too big a hole to climb out of. He was a 6'1" HW without top shelf power.

What if Quick's allergies to eggs and milk had been diagnosed in his amateur days? A lot of books warning about food allergens like milk and eggs were published during the 1970s, but excluding those from a boxer's diet went against traditional orthodoxy. As it was, many questions were being raised about Howard Davis, Jr's. vegetarianism [which may indeed well account for Howard's costly lack of power and punch resistance].

Given a diet appropriate for his needs and physical tolerances, Quick Tillis may well not have gassed against Weaver in 1981, and taken the WBA Title as many expected him to.

Sometimes, I wonder if something similar hindered Jimmy Ellis, who also had troubles with stamina and poor recuperative powers despite his distance orientation. Unlike Gerrie Coetzee and Jerry Quarry, Tillis and Ellis were not deficient in confidence about their stamina and abilities. They genuinely tried to do the best they knew with support from the same HOF trainer. James was inadvertently sabotaged by substances poisonous to him just as Foreman tried to claim he purposely was by Dick Sadler in Kinshasa.

Now, I know a number of people with previously undiagnosed lactose intolerance, Crohn's and coeliac disease, even whole grain allergies, as well to eggs. Maybe a number of you likewise are personally acquainted with such cases. I've seen the dramatic improvement in these people after years of suffering. Usually, the causes of these problems are finally determined and corrected when they're far older than professional athletes.

For me, what James Tillis did achieve is remarkable on two fronts. He got as far as he did despite an undiagnosed debilitation, and he was finally availed of a cause and solution, which while too late to salvage his career, also came early enough in his life to improve the quality of that life at an earlier age than most non athletes. He might as well have had severe anemia without knowing it when he stepped in the ring with Weaver.

He didn't hit the skids in retirement, and he didn't wind up a bum all his life like Dundee warned him he might when he was fading against Hercules. He kept his roots in Tulsa, sired a daughter who became a success in collegiate and professional basketball, and appears to have been a solid character since leaving the ring. He has outlived conquerors Johnny DuPlooy, Carl Williams, Tommy Morrison and Greg Page. [I'm omitting Gary Mason from that group because Gary didn't die as a result of organic disease like Johnny or Carl, boxing inflicted injuries by staying around too long like Greg, or self destructive behavior like Tommy, but because he was hit by a damned van while cycling.] Maybe, just maybe, Tillis is still alive and well today because of his boxing career, and the crippling food allergies which were diagnosed early as a result of it.