Marciano v Liston

-Patterson overall, but it didn't help him much.

-Exactly, but you aren't considering Patterson's opponents in the same light.


For instance you threw Archie Moore under the bus but heading into the Patterson fight, he had a better run of wins/losses than Machen or Foley had in 60. Moore 56 would be the best win and possible opponent Liston ever faced.


Moore 54-56:
W: Baker, Valdez, Henry, Johnson, Pompey, Whitehurst, King, Parker,
L: Rocky Marciano

Folley: 58-60
W: Machen, King, Bygraves,
L: Cooper
D: Machen

Machen 58-60:
W: Jackson, Baker, Maxim.
L: Johnson, Ingo
D: Folley

 

Chronologically Patterson took on the best people at the right time.

Archie Moore was the heavyweight to beat when Floyd fought him. Floyd beat Baker and Valdes and was unbeaten since the Marciano fight. His resume was the best of ANY contender at that time. Floyd knocked him out.

Jackson beat the best of the rest and pushed Floyd quite close in an elimination fight. He was owed a shot.

Nobody knew who machen was until after Patterson knocked out Jackson. It was machens win over Jackson that made him an outstanding contender but that came AFTER Patterson had already dealt with Jackson..

Williams was not given a rating untill 1961 because he had not beat any names until then.

 

Saying Moore was past-it and had his best years at light-heavy isn't bashing Moore: That's simply the truth and I find it mind boggling that anyone would claim otherwise. Moore was past-it and fighting at the wrong weight when he lost to Marciano. The man was an ATG light-heavy but he was no longer in his prime or his proper weight class. If I had said "Moore sucked" then you'd have a case. The problem is I didn't say that.

I DO weigh the career stage and weight class of a fighter heavily when I evaluate how good a win is. I think it's of particular importance. If you don't that's fine: We can agree to disagree. But the point is there is a rational basis for how I see the Moore fight that doesn't involve "bashing".

For what it's worth I don't put a lot of value on Tyson's win over Spinks for the same reason: While Spinks was an ATG light-heavy he was past-it and fighting in the wrong weight class when he got in the ring with Tyson.

 

His best years at LHW was 52-60. It was during this time he captured the LHW title and collected his signature LHW wins over Maxim, Johnson, Durelle, Pompey, and Olson.

What does one define prime as? Youth or the apex of fighting ability? Moore only lost twice from from 52-60..to Marciano and Patterson, he beat every other HW and LHW he faced. It is by far the best sustained run of his all time great career.

How do you figure Moore was at the wrong weight? He lost to Maricano but so did everyone else. Beyond that, he had the best HW resume of any contender in the mid 50s, and as pointed out a better resume than Foley and Machen.

Spinks/Tyson is a poor analogy for reasons that should be obvious. Leading up to the Tyson fight was Spinks fighting anywhere between 3 to 10 times a year, mostly above 175, beating multiple leading HW contenders while actively defending his LHW title against all comers twice a year? Spinks was only interested in collecting the occassional HW payday after Holmes II and was essentially drawn out of retirement to put over Tyson for a truckload of money, Moore was actively at the top of two divisions when he faced Patterson..huge difference.

 

Truth is anyone rating Cleveland Williams at all can only be rating him on what he looked like oiled up in a photograph. Because otherwise his resume is entirely based on getting KTFO by Liston or drawing with a man KTFO in one round by Ingo Johansson. Several leagues bellow ATG championship level.

 

So why do people rate Ali's win over Williams so highly. He was literally a "shot" fighter!

 

Or stopping Ernie Terrell?

 

Because Ali was able to look so good because Williams was so bad?

Brian London offered Ali the same kind of resistance only the Williams film was shot in colour so it made the highlight reels.

 

Big deal.

Marty marshal beat somebody before he was famous too.

 

Within a few months of being stopped by Williams ,Terrell was rated no 3. Williams was the first man to stop him and the only other to duplicate it was Jeff Merritt ,in Terrell's last fight.
You've really got it bad haven't you?

 

Prior to Jackson, Machen had beaten.
Maxim x2
Mederos x2
ValdesX2
King
Summerlin
Baker
Holman.
Machen was hardly unknown , he was no 5 in1956.

 

Here's how I define prime: From the time you have sufficient experience to make full use of your mature physical gifts until the time your reflexes start to slip. Once your reflexes start slipping you're past-prime. Once the reflexes are pretty much gone you're shot. Moore fought Patterson the month before his 40th birthday. I don't buy that Moore was prime at 40 any more than I buy the claims that Hopkins is in his prime now.

Look at Moore's record: After he fought Marciano Moore was defending the light-heavy title sparingly and against non-entities like Yolande Pompey and Tony Anthony. With a name journeyman like Yvon Durelle thrown in towards the end of his run. Mostly he was fighting journeymen of the 34-13-6 record variety.

Now I don't have any problem with a respected but aging fighter milking his belt as long as possible to fund his nest egg but let's not make more of it than what it was.

And thank you btw for editing out the comment impuning my boxing knowledge: I'm not getting personal in this discussion and I'd rather others didn't either.

 

so who did better against Ali, mildenburger or WIlliams? Who did better against machen, ingo or WIlliams? In the great scheme of ATG ratings not many people rate Williams and for pretty good reason. Rating Williams as an ATG #22 heavyweight is ludicrous. And you know it.

 

Hey Mongoose. Patterson nut-hugger here. With all due respect, the cut n' shoot Roy was nowhere near the best contender for Floyd in 58! He'd beaten nobody. Not Floyd's fault, Cus pulled the strings at the time. Haven't really checked but, outside of a UD against 1 or 2 top-10'er's, his career should have stayed in Texas whooping on fellow Longhorn wannabe's.

 

Let's not forget that styles make fights. I think a Big Cat-Ingo thread came up some time ago with mixed opinions. Ingo was your classic Euro heavy read: NO left hook.
But, he had a really good jab which could set up his ATG right hand (let's not underrate that right hand bomb, he lands clean on virtually ANY all time heavy and said heavy is either gone or hurt badly.)
Not a great set of whiskers but neither did Cleveland.
IMO this one could go either way, if Cleveland could avoid getting 'clocked' with the right, a Williams stoppage makes sense. Who knows, just typing out loud.