the what fights did you watch today\scorecard thread.

They were both shite.

time to retire.

 

Took in Norton-Holmes last night. If I had seen it it had been at least ten years, and I didn't remember scoring it. I had seem the 15th round a number of times, of course, but really couldn't remember scoring the fight.

First off - Wow, what a fight. If I put it a notch below the Bowe-Holyfield trilogy it is just a small notch, certainly in my top-10 of heavyweight fights I have seen.

I took a few notes on a post it note which watching the fight while I could while caring for a six week old, lol, but here is my card.

Round 1 - 10-9 Holmes
Round 2 - 10-9 Holmes
Round 3- 10-9 Holmes but Norton started to do some good work at the end of this round, including a pretty huge left hand if I recall
Round 4 - Holmes
Round 5 - 10-9 Holmes Big Left by Norton, but overall I thought Holmes did the better work.
Round 6 - 10-9 Holmes, Close Round
Round 7 - 10-9 Norton, this was the very first clear round to me for Norton. At first I thought Holmes was taking a round off, but he was tiring at this point.
Round 8 - Norton, Close Round
Round 9 - 10-9 Norton, Pretty clear and one of Norton's better rounds, Holmes got on his toes and landed some solid blows near the end of the round but I thought Norton edged it.
Round 10 - 10-9 Norton, Norton the busier fighter.
Round 11 - 10-9 Norton, Huge shots by Norton in the second half of the round
Round 12 - 10-9 Norton...Holmes early but Norton with the more powerful shots to close the round
Round 13 - 10-9 Huge Holmes round. You can argue this was a 10-8 round, as Norton was stumbling around the ring to end the round and was close to out on his feet.
Round 14 - 10-9 Norton. Great bounce back round, to set up one of the best rounds in Heavyweight history
Round 15 - 10-9 Norton, What's great is this was the first time watching the fight that I noticed one Sly Stallone in one of the first few rows cheering the fighters on as the pounded each other around the ring. I scored this round for Norton, but very close

Final Card - 143-142 For Norton, but obviously no real problems with a Holmes victory here. Of the 15 rounds I noted that six of the rounds (1,6,8,11,13,15) were close, which is pretty uncommon of me, as I can usually find a clear winner. To be fair though the Announcer Col. Bob Sheridan scored about 10 of the rounds even. Interestingly enough I don't believe any of the actual judges scored any of the rounds even.

Great fight, highly re-watchable. Planning to watch and score more of Holmes title run fights.

 

Duran vs Leonard #1
over8ed fait
very gud per4manc from Duran on e P4P basis , not so gud on e h2h basis

I geiv Duran rds 2,3
Leonard rd 6
rd 4 givable 2 Duran
rds 1,15 giveable 2 Leonard

It mins I hed Duran bay 1/2 pt .
Duran did not bit Leonard nor did Benitez bit him .

Duran in no wey bullied Leonard , only geiv him fits , bat den Leonard geiv him fits olso
Not sach n agresiv per4manc from Duran ider .

 

Instead of checking out other Larry Holmes title run fights I went the total opposite direction and watched his WBC title try against Oliver McCall that took place 17 years after he originally won the same title vs. Norton. I really just wanted to get this fight out of the way so to speak as I had often saw it was a close fight on boxrec and wanted to see it myself. I never heard of this fight as being a robbery. In fact you don't hear much about this fight at all. I now see why. Not going to be quite as detailed with my scorecard here, just give a few thoughts.

I scored it 115-113 McCall, with one "swing" round, that I scored for Holmes anyway. Fairly easy fight to score, but an odd one. Larry Holmes insisted the fight stayed on the ropes - and at 45 years old who could blame him - but got outworked and out muscled the majority of the time while on said ropes.

Holmes dominated the center of the ring action, the jab was still really damn good. McCall showed flashes of a great jab himself but is largely lucky that the old man was too tired to keep it in the center of the ring. Odd moments of the fight included McCall occasionally taking large laps around the ring (They did mention his "partying" habits and his was well into then by then) and Holmes calling McCall to the corner and McCall just looking at him inviting him back to the center of the ring. They both wanted to do the opposite thing they were good at that fight.

Any version of Holmes prior to 45, including the Holyfield loss and Mercer win beat this version of McCall, at least from what I saw.

 

Continued the Larry Holmes trend and watched his SD victory over Tim Witherspoon.

I'll lead with my scorecard, which read 115-113. After seeing the fight I was shocked to see that Boxing Monthly Magazine named it one of the ten most controversial decisions of all-time, though that could be because we live in an era where it sometimes feels we have 10 controversial decisions a month.

Back to the fight - I thought Holmes won four of the first six rounds. While I felt Witherspoon was bothering Holmes and largely doing what he wanted to do strategy wise I thought he was too inactive and Holmes won a lot of these rounds by using his jab and just being overall more active.

The good work Witherspoon did in the first half - including very solid body punching - started paying dividing in the second half. The 9th round Witherspoon was within a whisker of at least knocking down Holmes, and maybe even stopping him. To Holmes credit he landing a hellacious right hand that stopped Witherspoon in his tracks to the point I thought he was out on his feet for a few seconds. The 9th is a famous heavyweight round, and for good reason.

Final three rounds I thought Tim won the 10th and the 12th, with the 12th being what I call a swing round.

Again, don't really see how this was considered a huge controversy. Witherspoon played the role of underdog well, the Vegas crowd and announcers were on his side, but I don't see a major controversy here, but then again I never claimed to be amazing at judging fights. Solid fight, highly enjoyable. Witherspoon showed what he could have been and Holmes - if just a bit faded - was still very near the top of his game.

 

Solid post.

I had it 114-114 myself, but as you intimate here, it's too close a fight to squeal "robbery." That word has no business being used in context with this fight.

 

Thank you.

I should be clear I made is 115-113 Holmes but was still pretty surprised the magazine at the time called it one of the most controversy of all-time, that's a huge statement. I'm guessing it had something to do with recency bias, as it appears the magazing came out when this fight was still fresh on the minds of the boxing public, would make sense to attempt to sell mags on that hot topic of the time.

 

Continuing the Larry Holmes theme.

Watched Holmes vs. Marvis Frazier and Leon Spinks, will just speak very briefly on these fights.

The Frazier fight was just sort of sad. The fighters were light years apart, Joe trying to look positive, and Larry seeming genuinely upset at having to beat the kid of the guy he sparred 100's of rounds against and deeply admired. I was glad when it was over, and you didn't have to wait long.

Leon Spinks did things that made you see why/how he could have had skill. Was a bit awkward, and seemed to me to fight an exciting style. Still, by the end of two Larry had figured him all out, and dispatched of him in three.

Now, one I've been looking forward too, Holmes vs. Williams. This one I will give a little more detail on.

I think this fight has almost been forgotten because just how wide the scorecards were. People look at boxrec and think this was an easy Holmes victory. I'll just say flat out the two judges who scored this fight 11-4 were just plain wrong. Based on comments on this forum I knew the fight would be close, but in my mind after scoring both fights in recent days Williams had a bigger beef than Witherspoon when it comes to who deserved a victory over Holmes more.

I scored the fight 144-141 for Carl Williams. Here's some perhaps too long analysis on how I got there, lol

I gave rounds 1-6 all to Williams. He basically reminded me of a young Larry Holmes. He was light on his toes, and he had a beautiful jab, and he was very confident. He was taller than Holmes by an inch or two, had a three inch reach advantage and was clearly in better shape than the 35 year old champ. Holmes did have productive moments in these rounds. He landed some big rights occasionally, causing a cut over Williams left eye in round 4 and in round 5 he landed a thumb to the same eye. Holmes was warned throughout by Mills Lane to keep his glove closed.

7-8-9 I gave to Holmes. It seemed the left eye was giving Williams trouble. Round 7 was the first round Holmes jab really outshined the jab of Williams. In round eight Williams missed a left hand which caused him to do a full 360, which was interesting. This was also the first round Holmes backed down Williams. Between 8 and 9 Williams told his corner he was tired, which caused me to believe Holmes was going to rally, but after a strong finish to round nine, it appeared Holmes tired himself.

10 and 11 I gave to Williams, Round ten basically both fighters took off, but Williams did enough jabbing and landing in the center of the ring for me to give him the round. 11 was another fairly slow round, and I again gave it to Williams.

I gave the 12th to Holmes because Williams REALLY took this round off, to the point I was wondering if he thought he could coast to the victory at this point. However, it didn't help that he took yet another thumb to the eye in this round.

13th was the last round I gave to Williams, and I thought Holmes did enough to win the final two rounds. In the 14th he hurt Williams late in the round to the point you wonder if Holmes could have seriously hurt him in there had been some time left. In the 15th Holmes won a fairly slow round, but it was close.

I thought five rounds in this fight were close, which may cause me to rewatch this as I wonder if I fell in love with Williams early ring generalship and let that cause me to give him the close rounds. He just LOOKED like the better fighter for the majority of the fight.

The close rounds I scored were

3 - Williams
4 - Williams
8 - Holmes
13 - Williams
15 - Holmes

So, there was certainly room on my card where on another viewing I think Holmes could at least have scored a draw. However, overall I'm pretty happy with my scoring.

I feel this is a lot of words for a fight not a lot of folks seem to talk about, but it was certainly worth a viewing. Williams displayed skills that reminded you of a young Larry Holmes, and at the very least didn't deserve to lose that fight 11 rounds to 4 (x2) that's just ludicrous.

I'll finish up my Tour of Holmes over the next couple of days with the Spinks fights (Haven't watched them in years, and don't know if I scored them) and maybe will watch the Cooney fight again. Always thought Cooney showed a lot of heart in that fight against a top of his game Holmes.

 

Last night I watched Marvin Johnson stop a game and spirited challenge issued by Jean Marie Emebe in 1987.

It was the third go-round for Johnson as light-heavy champion, and the only successful defense he ever made of any of the three titles. He opened in typiocal Johnson fashion, rushing out and launching that straight left time and again. Emebe, for his part, fired the straighter punches, though somewhat fewer of them. Volume was Johnson's game, and he brought it again to this fight.

Superb action, with Johnson's head rocking back under Emebe's fusillades and the champ applying lots of pressure. Emebe seemed to head hunt too much, and would have been well-served to take a page from Eddie Mustafa Muhammad's playbook against Johnson, where each time Marvin would lean in with those awkward, long left crosses, he would plant a right uppercut to the midriff as he came in. Those opportunities were there in abundance, but Emebe gave up on the body attack early for some reason.

Instead, it was Emebe who grew tired in the later rounds, and cuts over both eyes and bad swelling around the right eye caused referee
Luis Rivera to step in during the 13th round to halt it in the champ's favor.

Good action scrap.

 

This morning I watched and scored the Larry Holmes vs Tim Witherspoon fight. No matter how many times I watch it I don't know how anyone called this fight a robbery. I felt though most of the rounds were close and competitive that Holmes won most of them. I scored it 8-4 for Holmes, Witherspoon did well for himself to give a great champion such a good fight and put on an excellent show but I don't think he did enough to win most of the rounds. Angelo Dundee really was loving what Witherspoon was doing throughout and made it sound like he was winning the fight but in my eyes Holmes out boxed and out worked him in most of the rounds.

 

For some reason Botha vs Briggs caught my eye today on youtube and I decided to check out the fight. You know what Botha was alright, I never really gave the guy any credit but he looked good in this fight. I scored it 8-3 for Botha, Botha was whooping Briggs throughout then in the 8th tired badly and Briggs dropped him giving him an extra point, but Botha who looked done came back to win the 9th then beat the hell out of Briggs in the 10th. It was a good fight between two guys who were never championship material. Botha got robbed in the decision having the fight called a majority draw.

 

Agreed - as you may have saw I scored this 7-5 in favor of Holmes and mentioned I was shocked that a boxing magazine scored it the most controversial fight of all-time. I thought Carl Williams deserved the win against Holmes more than Witherspoon. Would be interested in hearing your score on that one.

 

I've watched the Holmes vs Carl Williams fight a number of times the last time I watched it I remember scoring it close, I think I had it a draw or one point towards Holmes. I can remember the first time I watched it scoring the fight for Williams. Either way it was a really close fight much closer then the Holmes vs Witherspoon fight . I really feel the commentating played a big role in making lots of folks believe the Holmes vs Witherspoon fight was a robbery I've watched the fight many times and always seen it a clear win for Holmes.

 

I agree about the Holmes Witherspoon fight. I thought Larry completely controlled the fight with his jab and work rate I think only gave Witherspoon one round going into that classic 9th round. Angelo Dundee was crazy at some point before ninth he was saying something like the fight is even lol. I remember Witherspoon land some good body shots but that was it. Hey Heizenberg how's your head after Rodney Bobick beat it like a drum lol.

 

I watched the first Spinks vs Ali fight yesterday and I must say I forgot how great of a fight it was. Awesome back and forth action between a young hungry fighter and a diminished but still great champion. Spinks never ended up having a great career at all from this fight on but fought like a champion on this night. Ali at this point in his career lacked the power to really damage Spinks which made the determined Spinks a very tough challenge. Spinks kept a constant workrate throughout and often took the play away from Ali in exchanges. I scored the bout 9-5-1 for Spinks.