Joe Calzaghe v Roy Jones Jnr 2002

He sure out boxed both Hopkins and Jones....................

 

why was ali still the Ring Magazine Lineal Champion when he fought evangelista after his brief retirement following the third ken norton fight.

the lineal champion at one point was a flawed system(spinks/foreman) that left scenarios open to ones interpretation.

in its prior set of rules a Ring Lineal Champion could conceivably be between two unranked fighters nowhere near being recognized as the legit champ on the theory of "the man who beat the man."

 

There's a big difference between ring Magazine Champions and lineal Champions. Ring Magazine is far from consistent and often has a north American bias.

Now the generally accepted rule is that the lineal championship passes from the man who beat man etc. Whenever a lineage is broken either by retirement or shifting division a new lineage is formed when the no. 1 and 2 contenders square off or in exceptionel cases 1 and 3 (Wlad vs. Chagaev).

In the case of Ali, he returned before a new lineage could form and on a sad night for boxing, turned the lineage over to Holmes.

 

the previous design was just a flawed system as you mentioning retirement or shifting divisions as the only way lineage could be broken.

under the current Ring Magazine Lineal Championship policy the one and three could determine lineage as opposed to just one and two as why vitali was detemined as the new lineal champion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Ring_world_champions

The Ring introduced a championship policy in 2002. A vacant title is awarded only to the winner of a fight between The Ring 's #1 contender and its #2 or #3 contender; The Ring 's Top-10 contender rankings, while credible, are not systematic.

again, this is the policy of Lineal Championship given by Ring Magazine and i understand there are other peoples definitions of what defines lineage

 

What a cowardly retreat from Queency :roflatsch:yep

 

The bottom line is that Ring Magazine Champions is different from lineal Champions. They have made several bad calls through the years. Worst being the Roy Jones - Dariusz Michalszewski debacle. Also making Vitali - Johnson a fight for the championship was a bad call since Johnson wasn't in their top 3.

When Ring Magazine lost their credibility in that department, cyberboxingzone picked up the slack.

 

why cant you provide me the linked page where i accepted your profile view ban bet?

you know, the bet that you said we made after you fell into a deep depression when you suffered such a massive loss of value on your fake 1,885,000 view counts after receiving such an as-s kicking from me?

http://www.boxingforum24.com/showthread.php?t=488153&page=28


maybe it seemed like a good idea to proclaim that we had a bet then.

not so much now, no?

really, a make believe view count bet?

did you make our bet while flying in your make believe corporate jet to your make believe 400 million dollar corporate mexico headquarters after your make believe dubai and beverly hills vacations from the money that you won from your make believe 100 million dollar betting schemes?

 

fair enough.

but in ring magazines defense it was the vitali/sanders fight that was detemined to be for their lineal championship and not the vitali/johnson fight.

sanders coming off the 2nd round knockout of wbo champ wlad

 

Yes i mixed them up a bit. Sanders was rated at 3 above Vitali, despite not having fought over a year. Vitali then gets elevated above Sanders by beating unranked Johnson.

 

anyway, when its all done and dusted, joe didn't want roy jones or tough fights that's why he fought a string o bums largely for 10 years.

The only time he didn't fight bums is when he fought lacy (last defence) or when he mistook a semi decent opponent for a bum, which is odds on to happen at some point if you fight 20.

 

BatTheMan,

I've just got back from holiday, that's why my reply is so late.

Nobody is disputing what happened with two of the belts. But again, during negotiations, Roy had all three of the belts, and was the unified champ. He was also considered the best fighter in the world, which put him in the driving seat.

This has already been covered in an earlier thread.

Kohl did negotiate to try and make the fight, but ONLY IN GERMANY on his terms.

DM did ask for a fight, but again, ONLY IN GERMANY.

Roy made it abundantly clear that he didn't want to fight in Germany, telling Kerry Davis and Brad Jacobs "I don't think a knockout would be enough over there!"

1. Who says he would have gotten peanuts?


2. Afterwards, he'd obviously have had the opportunity to fight Roy for his old belts, in a huge fight.

Again, Kohl only made proposals to fight in Germany. Roy stated from the outset that he didn't want to go there.

No, I don't agree. Not all of them were.

Instead of bumping the thread titled - Discuss fighters Jones Jnr ducked in his prime, I'll highlight your original post, followed by my reply, from last December.


Below is what you wrote:

This was my reply:


I have now checked through each resume on your list, from the time that Roy beat Toney, until the time he moved up to 175.

Some fights couldn't be made, some fighters were deserving of a shot, and some fighters shouldn't even have been on the list.


The full list is as follows:


Nunn - Nunn only had TWO fights at 168 during Roy's reign, a loss to Liles, and a win over Scully. His other fights were between 175-195.


Benn - As discussed a billion times, a fight could not be made because Roy and King couldn't agree terms. King wanted options, and the Levin's who handled Roy back then, didn't want to deal with King.


Eubank - As discussed, he's admitted on numerous occasions, that Roy was never his mandatory, and he never went after the big fights. A fight was never viable.


Collins - 7 wins during Roy's reign, 2 wins over Benn, 2 wins over Eubank, and wins over Carr, Brown and Pyatt. In my opinion, Benn and Eubank had seen better days, but I think he was deserving of a shot at Roy


Iran Barkley - NO FIGHTS AT 168, during Roy's time there.


Victor Cordorba - Just ONE win against Tim Hillie, and I don't know if that was at 168 or 175.


Tim Littles - 3 wins against Casenay Truesdale, Mike Belcher and Chris Sande.


Van Horn - NO FIGHTS AT 168 during Roy's time there.


Frankie Liles - 4 wins against Nunn, Littles, Seillier and Amaral. Deserving of a fight, but according to Larry Merchant, turned down a big money offer to face Roy. The video of this is in post 230, but no specific details are given. Liles was also a Don King fighter.


Nardiello - 5 wins against Massimillano Bocchini, Jose Vargas, Rolando Torres, Noberto Bueno and Malinga.


Ray Close - Just ONE FIGHT at 168, a loss to Eubank in their rematch.


Rocchigiani - Just ONE FIGHT at 168, a draw against Seillier.


Frank Nicotra - Just ONE FIGHT at 168, a win against Hedi El Assaidi.



You've criticised Roy for having easy fights after Toney, and you were happy to throw these names around and claim that they were deserving of a fight.

But two of the fighters above, didn't even fight at 168 while Roy was there, and FOUR other fighters only had one fight each.


So those SIX fighters clearly weren't DESERVING of a shot.



You've been very harsh on Roy, and you haven't read up on these fighters. You also haven't allowed for circumstances either.

 

I've never mentioned anything about Conn or Foster.

Boom?

Let me know when Andre has actually fought a HW.


If what Roy did was so easy, then more fighters would have done it.

There wasn't a huge list of LHW's knocking on Ruiz's door in 2002-2003.

 

BatTheMan,

You can have it, but I believe that Mind Reader has already cleared this up.

He's 6'2, and every fighter has their limits.

I don't believe for a second that he could, or would fought as a MW today.

I merely used Joe's circumstances as an example.

 

It's easy to say that.

But again, Roy breezed past Toney and Malinga.

Who else did that?

You refuse to allow for certain circumstances, and you're just looking at one specific period of time, and then hating on him.


Who gives a f*ck if he missed most of the names from your list, when he went on to beat:


Montell Griffin


Lou Del Valle


Virgil Hill


Reggie Johnson


Eric Harding


John Ruiz


Antonio Tarver



at higher weights?



Go and compare Roy's resume to any other fighter that fought between 168-175, from the same era.

 

Rico Spadafora,

Nobody is arguing that Roy didn't pull out. But you're completely ignoring the fact of WHY.

You're trying to spin yourself out of the mess that you've got yourself into.

Nobody was talking about the lightly regarded belts he had at 175.

You were trashing Roy for fighting Ruiz for the WBA, while at the same time questioning why he didn't fight Sanders for the WBO.

Like I say, your hatred for Roy throws all logic out of the window.

He didn't want Sanders or Byrd, because Tyson was interested in a fight, and that would have been for mega money.

The only thing that's obvious, is that you hate Roy, you're illogical, and like Bailey, you refuse to allow for any circumstances.

Again, Roy broke the contract to try and make a bigger fight.