Who gives a prime Ali nightmares?

There's something funny about you. Not only your belief that Ali was some kind of invincible human being during the 60's and your overrating of his speed, but what I find to be the funniest thing about you is that you're desperately trying to convince people that some of his opponents were much greater than they were in fact. You made it sound like Foreman was one of the most skilled heavyweights, which he wasn't, then you try to make it seem like the second Liston fight was legit, which I also think it wasn't. Liston was way past his best times and I think Ali would have still won, but that does not change the fact that it looked like a clear dive.

 

Well whatever was happening in the 2nd fight it's clear from Ali's reaction to the knockdown that he wasn't in on it.
The most surprised man to the knockdown was Ali,if you watch him he immediately stands over Liston gesturing for him to get up yellin "get up ya bum".
By post fight, forever the publicist and oppurtunist Ali was taliking about his new "phantom punch!"
As for Liston being past his best both fights that certainly wasn't the perception at the time. He was overwhelming favourite the first fight everyone thought he would kill Ali inside 3 rounds. He was even a strong favourite for the return.
He may or may not have been past his best but after the 2nd Ali fight until the Martin fight 5 years or so later he'd knocked out just about everybody that he faced although admitedly they weren't all stellar opposition.

 

No one is claiming Ali was involved in the fix.

And of course he was surprised that Liston went down. He (Ali) threw the punch and knew it wasn't a knockout punch.

Lastly, Liston was not a "strong" favorite in the return match. I believe he was favored, but "strong" is over doing it.

 

Oh but it was. He could go, 10, 12, 15 rounds even, dancing and sticking and moving, ( pre 68 ) and still put his motormouth into overdrive, and talk at 100 mph in the post fight interview. Now that is lung power = stamina.:good

 

I think we're splitting hairs here.
He was a big enough favourite.

 

Before you are so quick to analyse others you really need to take a good look at yourself, and you're fixation with trying to down play Ali's ability, record, and opponents.

Ali / Foreman was and probably still is, the most written about fight in history. There were genuine fears for Ali's safety going into that fight, due to the fact that his speed of hand and foot had declined, and Foreman was considered at that time to be a wrecking ball puncher.

The whole point of that version of Foreman was he didn't need an abundance of skill, he just walked guys down and poleaxed them.

To try to downgrade that win by Ali is misguided revisionism at best, and downright stupidity at worst.

 

Holyfield beats him.

 

Watch the programme when Ali came to Britain, Angelo Dundee says that he used smelling salts and ripped Ali's glove. That should be all the proof that you need, otherwise your just stupid.

 

You stated that Cooper would have knocked Ali cold in the next round which is only an opinion and pure conjecture.
Whatever Dundee did the fact is and it is a fact not conjecture Ali only got 5 extra seconds between the rounds it's all there on film.
If sticking to the facts makes me stupid then ok i'm stupid.

 

Andrei.....go to bed tonight knowing....you cannot be more wrong.

No boxing historian or trainer who knows anything about the sport would deny Alis speed or greatness. This is why he is rated as highly as he is.

If you want more scientific proof Jim Jacobs the noted boxing film collector compared the punch speed of Ali, a hwt, and SRR, a welter/middleweight via analysis/comparison of films of both fighters. The results showed Ali was faster of the two. That's very fast.

It would take one very special fighter to beat prime Ali....just too quick for the vast majority of fighters through the years and definitely too quick for the walking statues of today.

 

Cooper was not in Alis league...everyone knows this. He landed a lucky punch..the next round Ali got to work and stopped him. End of story.

 

It's one thing to believe a fight was a dive or fix...quite another to show proof that it was. I am a technical person by trade so I always look for evidence. The fight was investigated and guess what? No evidence of a fix was found. No evidence of money passed to Liston, Liston staggers in the ring after the fights over, Liston asked for smelling salts in the dressing room after the bout with only his own people around and finally Listons jaw was pushed violently to one side and his lead foot rose off the canvas from the force of the blow.

Read the SI article written the week of the fight...very few at ringside thought the ko was a dive. Those that testified to the legitimacy of the ko at ringside were...Patterson, Torres, Damato...many others.

Your proof? Do you have an official investigation that proves the fight was fixed?

 

get fukked & die . if this does not show that Cooper was at least on Ali's level , what does ?

 

LOL. Not sure where I was wrong. I said basically the same thing you did other than the fact that you are exaggerating some of Ali`s advantages. He didn`t throw jab better than Holmes and he sure as hell didn`t throw a better right hand.

I also agreed that Ali would win a decision over Holmes at their respective peaks. On the other hand to say there is no comparision between the two reeks of an Ali fanboy mentality more than anything. Their both top 5 All Time Heavyweights in most peoples minds.

Its odd that Norton would say Ali hit harder since he never really hurt Kenny in 3 fights yet Holmes had Norton wobbling a couple of times in their `78 bout. I`ll believe what I actually saw.:good. And LOL Holmes stopped Ernie Shavers Ali didn`t.

 

It's becoming the norm that you ask that people die Pepe, just because people have a different opinion from you.
It is impossible to debate with someone as unhinged and has the deluded opinion that Cooper was at least of the same level as Ali.
Not much more to say really.