Papke-Carpentier footage.

I've watched lots of Carpentiers filmed bouts also. As with all these grainy silent films idiosyncrasies are lost. Carp was a great feinter and always led his opponents into his ko punch which was his right hand.

Carpentier was a very hard hitter for a man of his size and this is seen in just the comments of Dempsey concerning his punching power. In*addition to being a hard puncher he had great will to win and a taker of hard blows....another sign of boxing greatness.

He was a collector of boxing titles during his career - the Light Heavyweight Championship of the World, the White Heavyweight Championship of the World, the Heavyweight Championship of Europe, the Heavyweight Championship of France, the Light Heavyweight Championship of Europe, the Middleweight Championship of Europe, the Welterweight Championship of Europe and the Welterweight Championship of France.

Carpentier defeated such men as Ed "Gunboat" Smith, Battling Levinsky, "Bombardier" Billy Wells, Jeff Smith, Harry Lewis, Young Joseph, Willie Lewis, George Gunther, Ted "Kid" Lewis and George Cook.

Numerous historians ranked him as an all time great champion notably Charlie Rose, Nat Fleischer and Dan Morgan

 

Charlie Rose, Nat Fleischer, and Dan Morgan have likely seen less of Carpentier than we have. Thats not a boast or bragging its just a fact.

 

Another thing that makes this effort by Papke even more impressive is that by this time he had been going down hill for two years at least. When Ketchel died Papke was already considered to be going down hill. Shortly thereafter he publicly retired stating that he didnt like training, couldnt get in shape anymore, and couldnt make weight. His record prior to facing Carpentier is spotty and had some really unsatisfying results. He could still defeat easy meat like Georges Barnard and Marcel Moreau but as a world class fighter Papke was at least on the slide if not totally finished. Less than five months after facing Carpentier he took a beating at the hands of Klaus and fouled out when he was on the verge of a KO. After that he was done. So to see him in this kind of condition (he still didnt make the MW limit (even by French standards which was 160 as opposed to 158 in the USA) and giving this kind of performance only gives a glimpse of what he was truly capable of back in 1907/1908.

 

They all saw him fighting in person..live..flesh and blood. Thats something you or I nor anyone else alive today or ever to live can ever do. As such They and only they (those that saw him live in person) can really judge the fighters merit. Huge difference vs grainy films where boxing skills are lost to the poor technology of the time. These same men told of poor fighters or fighters with less than great skills but at the same time had excellent praise for Carp.

 

Also in 1945 Tommy Loughran who no one disputes as an ATG stated that "the greatest fight ever given to him was by Carpentiers".

 

Loughran also said he never lost a fight to Harry Greb. The fact of the matter is that Loughran was covering his ass for having a much harder time with Carpentier than he should have as Carp was coming off one sided losses to Tunney, Gibbons, and a controversial draw with sub par Eddie Huffman. Carpentier hadnt defeated a world class fighter since his knockout over ridiculously over matched and twenty pounds lighter Ted Kid Lewis 4 years earlier and would never again be competetive against much less beat a world class fighter WITH THE EXCEPTION of Loughran who struggled in winning a unanimous decision.

 

Yeah, my initial stab didn't really reflect what I was thinking.

Good observations above. Fascinating clip. Have me watching Ketchel v Papke 4 which is pretty cool but they both have broken hands, if I remember.

 

Pittsburgh Gazzete Jan 18 1945. Loughran quoted as follows...

"There was no doubt that Harry pound for pound was the best. We fought six hot battles and I think I learned enough about him to be able To be quoted as an authority. Every one of our battles Were close. Harry was credited with three decisions, I won two and one was declared a draw. I though I beat Greb in two of the bouts He won and I figure he thought he won the two bouts the judges or newspapers gave me."

"The greatest fight ever given me was by Carpentier who was very good but like Greb lacked size."

Loughran was covering nothing...this was two decades after all of these bouts occurred so get real. He praises Greb as the best pound for pound ever but says that Carp gave him his toughest bout.

Loughran by any measure was one of boxings all time greats. He is saying here that Carp gave him his toughest bout. Add this to the fact Carp was rated by Rose, Fleischer and Morgan quite highly.

 

Tommy was known to be slightly delusional im sure Klompton can expand on that especially regarding the Greb fights. Don't think anybody would back up Loughren's claims of their series being anywhere near as close as he would like us to believe.

 

The fights were definitely close. Tommy was one of boxings all time great pure boxers. My dad who knew more about boxing from that period than anyone lived in PA near where Loughran trained back in the late 20s and early 30s. He was my fathers favorite fighter and he always felt Loughran was the best pure boxer from that period. Loughran would train with hands down center ring and have sparring partners throw punch after punch while he would slip each and every one with just head movement. He would do this round after round. Another thing was Loughran was the first boxer my Dad ever saw use weights. He would pick up dumbbells one in each hand and stand in an on guard position ...jab fully extended and right hand by his chin...for 3 minute rounds. Then switch right hand extended and left by his chin...alternating round after round. He had so many stories about Tommy I wish I had recorded them now.

 

Quote the newspaper sources so we can all see just how close those six fights were. No? I didnt think so. Greb clearly won the first three and the fifth. The first was competitive but a clear win for Greb. The next two were Greb's by a country mile. Loughran was considered a poor challenger by the press after their 1923 bout for the American LHW championship Greb beat him so easily and without trying. Greb brutalized Loughran in their fifth bout and almost stopped him. The two bouts that Loughran had any success with Greb amounted to a draw in Loughran's hometown and a victory over Greb in Boston when Greb decided that following the World Series was more important than preparing for Loughran.

 

First meeting

The Pittsburgh Post (Grebs home town) - "Loughran, a great fighter, tried hard, fought well, and at times proved a capable foeman, and it was not until the fifth round that Greb really had an advantage." For five rounds, Loughran tied up Greb's body attack. Using a standup style, he cut Greb's left eye and worked him into some tough spots. But he tired in the last three rounds, and Greb mounted his windmill attack to earn victory."

Second meeting

The Pittsburgh Post (Grebs home town) - Greb won 9 rounds and the fourth round was even. After the 5th round Greb was the complete master, the clever defense of Loughran being the only thing to save him from being stopped. Greb swarmed all over Tommy and wouldn't let him box in his standup style. Loughran looked good in flashes.

Third meeting

The Pittsburgh Post (Grebs home town) - Loughran gave Greb a boxing lesson for the first three rounds, punishing him with a left jab and blocking his punches. For the next 9 rounds, Greb built up a good lead, especially with his in-fighting. In the last three rounds, Loughran opened up a strong body attack that gave Harry trouble.

Forth meeting

The Pittsburgh Post (Grebs home town) - It was a close fight. Loughran won the first two rounds, waging a body attack. Greb dominated the next five rounds. Loughran won the last three rounds. Loughran landed the cleaner blows. It was a good fight.

The Boston Globe said that many thought that Greb won although Loughran got the decision. Greb was guilty of rough tactics and Tommy landed the clearner blows.

The Boston Herald - Loughran registered the cleaner blows in every round, while noting that it was a rough bout. The Boston Herald felt that Loughran won the last two rounds by a wide margin.

Fifth meeting

Pittsburgh Post (Grebs home town) - Greb 5 rounds, Loughran 3, and 2 even. The first round was even, Greb won the 2nd, Tommy the 3rd, Greb the 4th and 5th. Loughran almost floored Greb with a wicked right in the 5th, but Greb fought back with a terrific flurry and kept Tommy from following up on his advantage. Loughran won the 6th and 8th rounds and the seventh was even. Greb won the 9th and 10th


Sixth meeting

One judge called for Greb and one scored for Loughran while the referee scored a draw.

The Pittsburgh Post (Grebs home town) - Greb forced the fighting and at times he landed at will. But Loughran boxed well at long range and concentrated on a body attack.


So Loughrans comments really were not very off base. Fight two was clearly Grebs while the other 5 were close affairs. Also realize that Loughran was 19 years old as of their initial meeting.

In your world Dempsey, Carpentier (and now Loughran?) deceived 80 years of boxing trainers and historians into thinking they were great. Experts that saw these man live and in person know less than someone who looks at records and silent film era films 80 years later?

 

I'm not going to argue against the greatness of Loughran. He was a brilliant fighter. That doesn't mean one lone comment he made is gospel. Foreman was a great also. I don't need to recount the wisdom ol' George has dropped in his long career.

The truth is that Carpentier ran like a dog from Greb, whose management repeatedly offered extremely splits. George was happy to go fight a bunch of Euro goof troopers rather than meet Harry. When Greb first saw Carpentier fight he was licking his chops. Nobody who didn't have a vested interest in selling tickets gave him a chance in hell against Dempsey.

Carpentier was a good fighter, not a great.

 

He was rated top 10 all time lt heavy for many decades. To this day on occasion he is still listed.

No one is discussing anything about Carp vs. Greb. No one is disputing Grebs greatness. I dispute the twisting of known history in an effort to smear fighters and or make others look better than they were.

Carp as well as Loughran were great fighters. Loughran stated Carp gave him his toughest fight while at the same time praising Greb as the best of all time. Very fair and in no way was he twisting or distorting history or the facts. He was there, he fought the fights.