Joe Calzaghe v Roy Jones Jnr 2002

I gave you what you asked for. There are others. Chris Byrd for instance.

 

Try and relate to what I write, instead of writing an excuse procedure with no base as far as the topic at hand.

8 years into his pro career, Spinks weighs in at 170 at a same day weighin. Now if Spinks walks around at 190 as you (and some with lesser IQ) suggests, then why would he drain himself 5 lbs below the LHW limit? That just doesn't make any sense whatsoever!

You know I hold you at a high regard, so please stop dissapointing me.

Again if he at a same day weighin weighs in 5 lbs below the limit, I think it's reasonable to assume that his fighting weight is only slightly above that weight, which would equal the fightnight weights of Sergio, Froch, Kessler and others and will be below that of JCCJR, Sturm and others.

Given the fact that most fighters gain weight during their careers, surely you must agree that Spinks 8 years previously to weighing 170, could have quite easily made 160 at todays weighin regime. Please!

 

NY Daily News, years ago.

 

Of maybe www.madeupnews.com ?

 

Makie Shilstone boiled him down to 170, that was the LOWEST he came in in his entire professional career he only had 4.6% bodyfat which is insane.. According to Mackie he had lost 8-9 lbs of pure muscle to get there.. I am saying the extra 10 would have been too much...

 

Why would I need to lie? It was in the Daily News when it happened. Actually, it went on for about 2-3 weeks. Tim Smith had a weekly article where he discussed boxing. Don't think he does anymore but he reported (continually) the talks between Kohl and HBO, from when Kohl flew in to the outcome.

 

BatTheMan,

You can't just dismiss the link, and comeback with this.


We've got sufficient proof that states the following:


Kohl made offers to Roy to fight in Germany.


Roy made it clear that he didn't want to go there.


Kohl said HBO and Roy's team had to come up with a good offer to get DM to go to the U.S.


Kerry Davis and Brad Jacobs met several times, but Kohl wouldn't take their calls, or arrange a meeting to discuss anything.



If Roy hadn't have wanted the fight, he wouldn't have paid Jacobs to meet with Davis.

Also, he wasn't handed any belts, unless you're referring to the Roch incident. He beat Lou Del Valle and Reggie Johnson, who were good fighters, to unify. You make it sound as though a FedEx van pulled up to Roy's farm in Pensacola, and all he had to do was to sign for them.

It is correct, Kohl admitted to purposely ignoring calls.

Could he earn more cash than what a fight with Roy would have brought?

What about his old belts that he was stripped of?

You would have assumed that he'd have been desperate to get them back.

How did Roy price himself out? They never got that far in negotiations.

The proposed double header was a good idea, but it was only proposed in the first place and faxed off, because Kohl was ignoring Davis's attempts to sit down with him.

DM and Kohl both said that they were willing to go to the U.S. but the offer had to be good.

But again, we've seen Davis say that he couldn't even get the ball rolling with a starting offer, because of Kohl's refusal to engage.

How could they have been any numbers?

Let's be realistic, DM wouldn't have been likely to only get thousands of dollars appearing on a double header would he?

Do you seriously think that if DM had appeared on the double header, that he wouldn't have been guaranteed to fight Roy afterwards, if both fighters had been successful?

That whole purpose of the double header, was to introduce DM to the U.S. public and to hype the fight.

Again, there obviously would have been a guarantee to fight Roy afterwards. You're just being silly. Davis and Kohl wouldn't have flew DM to America to fight on HBO with out a guaranteed shot afterwards.

How did he get Roy into the ring?

DM's record speaks volumes.

The WBO champ.

Nice spin? I've agreed that Benn, Liles and Collins etc, WERE deserving of a fight.


I only pulled you up, because some of the names on the list are nonsense.


Just admit that you've been harsh.


How could the list have been objective, when I've proven that 6 of the names weren't deserving?


Two guys on the list DIDN'T even fight at 168 while Roy was there.


So how were they more deserving of a fight than a mandatory like Antoine Byrd for example?


Why on earth would HBO and Roy have pursued fights with the likes of Ray Close and Frank Nicotra?


It's a joke!

Vinny was known, and he fought in Roy's division.

He was more deserving of a fight than the guys who didn't fight at 168, and the likes of Ray Close etc.


You are also ignoring the fact that the Benn and Liles fights became impossible to make with Don King and the Levin Brothers.


I don't know how you can criticise Roy, when:


He'd knocked out a very good fighter in Malinga.


He'd schooled Toney, who was considered one of the best P4P fighters in the world.


When he couldn't unify, he dropped his IBF, to fight at 175, where he eventually unified.



He only had about 7 fights at 168.


What's the big deal?


He probably achieved more against Malinga and Toney, than what most 168 fighters achieved.

 

You've given me one name who has expressed an interest in maybe going up one day, in Andre Ward.

What does that tell us?

Byrd was a great fighter, but he didn't fight between 160-168 like Roy did, and he only had a handful of fights at 175.

 

An excuse procedure?


Did you even read the link?


You're either on a wind up, or you haven't read it.


Mackie Shilstone is a hugely respected sports psychologist/nutritionist/coach who has helped many athletes throughout the world of Boxing, tennis, MLB and the NFL.

I think you're just arguing for the sake of it.


You are being completely illogical.


Go and read the link, and take into consideration his body fat percentage etc.


Why would he even have tried to hit 160 today?


How could he EASILY have hit it?


Let's have a look what Mackie has said.


Spinks lost 25 pounds to fight Sears at 170, with a body fat percentage of only 4.6%, and the last 8-9 pounds that he lost, was actual muscle. (Since when has Sergio, Froch and Kessler etc had to lose muscle?)


So he walked around at 6'2, weighing between 187-192 pounds, and had to lose 8 pounds of actual muscle, to weigh 170, with a body fat percentage of just 4.6%, but you're claiming he could EASILY have hit 160 today?? Ha!


HOW???


Common sense and Mackie's figures tell us that:


1. It would have been physically impossible for him to go from 187-192 down to 160 SAFELY.


2. He wouldn't have gained hardly any advantage even if it had've been possible.



I know you like a debate, and you like to troll, and I love engaging you.


But this is getting ridiculous.



We're all entitled to our own opinions, but you can't argue with science.

 

Science states that it would have been too much.

Bat's a proud man who likes to troll, and he obviously doesn't like to admit when he's wrong.

But I absolutely love debating with him, and last year I gave him the nickname of Dailey - The Danish Bailey.

They have many similarities.

 

Yes I can.

Agreed.

I suppose so, but that doesn't mean he should get a pass.

Sounds reasonable yes.

Probably correct. Was that after they made the ridiculously disrectfull offer of an undercard slot for little money?

I bet he wanted the fight. UNDER HIS CONDITIONS OBVIOUSLY.

DM didn't lose the belts in the ring. He was stripped under suspicious circumstances and guess who picked up those belts? Yep. RJJ. Everybody was happy. RJJ got some belts to his collection and the alphabet boys was guaranteed major sanctioning fees. They didn't give a f*ck about DM and integrity. It was all about money.

No, but a fight with Jones not on the table. Only an undercard slot where he'd leave behind a fortune in Germany.

After what they did to him? It's not all fighters who are trinket collectors like Jones.

In your link he said that he wanted a ridiculous 10M to go to Germany.

Not for DM. It was disrespectfull asking the champion of the world to leave a fortune behind in Germany.

And the offer was terrible. Who could blame Kohl for thinking that he'd lost enough time already.

But he definetely wasn't going to get anywhere near the purses he could earn in Germany agreed?

Knowing Jones history of avoiding challenges, I wouldn't advice doing anything without a guarantee in writing. Since you haven't found any guarantees, I'd say its safe to assume that none was ever given.

You bragg about sources continuesly. Do you have a source for this claim or are you just guessing here?

Maybe they tried to get a guarantee?

The champion of the world. Jones just had a beltcollection.

They where ranked top 10 by the ring and not on Jones record. That was the objective premise.

Yeah. He was just as deserving as Nunn. :nut

See above about the premise of my old post.

 

You are basically saying that they drained Spinks 5 more pounds than neccesary.

You are being silly. Stop trolling.

 

Ha ha ha.

Bailey makes some threads that are often ... interesting.... But some of his conclusions leaves you numb.

 

:rofl

You know what? I think I recall that now.

 

BatTheMan,

Ha! I LOVE debating with you, you stubborn *******! You must be Bailey's Danish Cousin? You two would make the greatest lawyers in the world!

What was the point in Kohl making those offers? He was wasting his own time.

It wasn't disrespectful, but no, they tried to arrange a meeting before they faxed through the proposal of the double header. But Kohl refused to take the calls, because he was pissed that Roy had turned him down previously. But what sort of businessman says "If they want us to go to America, then they better make us a good offer" only to then ignore their attempts to arrange a meeting to discuss it?

The proposal was faxed, because they couldn't get hold of him.

But the funny thing is, Kohl replied instantly to the fax, saying no.

He didn't think he'd get a fair shake in Germany.

He didn't just pick them up. Lou Del Valle held the WBA, and Reggie Johnson held the IBF. Both of those guys were good fighters, and southpaws.

You're being ridiculous. Are you seriously saying, that if Kohl had've agreed to bring DM over to fight on a double header, that they WOULDN'T have been guaranteed a shot afterwards?

So DM would have gone over and fought in front of the U.S. fans, the crowd would have been going crazy anticipating the fight, but afterwards, it may not have happened?

You think Kohl would have stepped on a plane, and HBO would have organised the event and paid DM, WITHOUT a guarantee afterwards?

It should have made him angry and determined. He would have had the opportunity to win them back in the ring, and be declared 'The Man'

He made it crystal clear that he didn't want to go to Germany. The only way he'd have gone, was if they'd have paid him an obscene amount of money. But everybody knew that it was never going to happen. Roy never priced himself out of a fight in America, because again, they never got that far in negotiations.

It wasn't disrespectful. Kohl initially put the ball in HBO's court, and DM said he was willing to go to America. Again, when Davis couldn't arrange anything, he faxed through the offer. If anyone was being disrespectful, it was Kohl for ignoring the calls.

Who could blame Kohl? He purposely ignored HBO's attempts to work out a deal.

He had to look at the big picture, and weigh up his options, and decide if he really wanted a shot at Roy.

Maybe he wouldn't have got the exact same amount for appearing on the double header. But I'm certain he'd have got more to face Roy afterwards, and if he thought he could beat Roy, that's the road he should have taken. He couldn't play the victim, turn down a good deal, and then fight Lakatos and King, while pretending to want Roy.

How could they have been one given, when things never got that far? The proposal was turned down flat. All of the details such as his opponent, the date, the money and guarantees etc, would obviously have been ironed out afterwards, if they'd have been interested. Davis was just testing the water.

As above. How can I have a source when the mere suggestion of it was instantly dismissed?

But we're talking about the then world's best fighter, fighting a huge fight against his main rival, in a fight that was hugely anticipated, for millions of dollars.

Of course there would have been a guarantee.

How could they have tried to get a guarantee, when they turned down the offer, giving a poor excuse?

DM had nothing to do with the WBC, and you haven't told me how DM tried to get Roy into the ring, after he'd said that he was willing to go to America?

Look, just admit that you've been harsh. I've agreed with you on half of the list.


Again, how could the two fighters who DIDN'T even fight at 168 at the time, be on his record?

Please answer the question.


How and why would Roy and HBO have pursued Ray Close and Frank Nicotra??


You've seen the stats. I haven't given you just my opinion, I've given you the full stats for each fighter.

You've been shown actual evidence, that 6 of the 13 weren't more deserving of a shot than the guys he fought.


You're saying that Roy ducked those guys, but he'd already knocked out Malinga and schooled Toney.

Where would Malinga rank in those 13 names? Probably quite high.

Where would Toney rank?

Toney probably would have topped the list.


Again, Roy went up to 175 afterwards, and beat Griffin, Del Valle and Virgil Hill, who were obviously better fighters than Ray Close, Victor Cordorba and Darrin Van Horn etc.

Nobody, for even one second, has suggested that Vinny was as deserving as Michael Nunn.


But he was more deserving than the likes of Ray Close, and the two guys that fought in a different weight class.


Come on, you can admit that you've got a little carried away with the 13 names you've given.