What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

I am fully aware of this 40 year old news. I am merely bringing it to your attention again NOW, in the hope that you might realise the futility of your nonsensical claims.

But as the saying goes," You can put pigs in suits but you'll never stop them grunting."

Alternatively." Far better to have people think you are stupid, rather than open your mouth and prove it. "

You are arrogantly putting yourself forward as having more knowledge of the fight, and injuries sustained in it than Pacheco, Ali, Dundee and Futch. The only reason you mention Norton and his selective memory 20 years later when he was promoting his frankly irrelevant book is because it suits your agenda.

Even more bizarrely you claim that NO fighter could POSSIBLY carry on fighting with a broken jaw for any length of time, when in fact they have. The 2 mentioned above, by McVey, and whether you believe it or not ( which is of no consequence ) indeed Ali.

Plenty of fighters have fought on through serious injuries, ( there is plenty of evidence to believe McClellan sustained his injury some time before the stoppage, is another instance that comes to mind ) over the years, and I will state again. Neither you, nor any boxing trainer have the medical knowledge or experience to know what injuries a fighter can or can't fight through.

 

You obviously have no idea of the controversy. Alis version of what occurred was discounted 40 years ago. See the quote of Norton a few months after the fight that I posted. It was one of many excuses he had as to why he lost this fight. Watch the fight and let everyone know when DR Pacheco attended to Alis broken jaw after round two. You cant because he did not touch Alis jaw nor did anyone after round 11.

 

The only criticism I have of this post is I would swap the word possibly, for probably.

 

I rewatched the first two rounds this morning.Pacheco was in the corner , but whether he examined Ali's jaw is inconclusive because the camera cuts away to cover the Norton corner.

Why should Norton's opinion be more valid than Ali's ,Pacheco's, or Dundee's?

I've given examples of boxers carrying on with broken jaws ,how do you know Ali, who has proven big balls would not do so?

 

I started seriously following boxing in 1959 and a couple of years later boxing myself. You are whipping up a controversy that is based on Norton's opinion, which is hardly an objective one.

 

Here is the fight in its entirety:


[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbYtHaduVZ8[/url]



Note from early on how Howard Cossell continually claims Ali was not up to form except for a brief burst in Round 3.

I distinctly recall watching this fight and thought Ali's jaw was bruised in R2 but really cracked in R6 when Norton hit him VERY hard.


Let the viewer decide for him/herself.

 

Norton landed several big shots on Ali's jaw in the second round, in the absence of evidence to the contrary,[Norton's opinion is worthless,] I'll believe Ali's corner.

"In the second round Ali fell against the ropes pulling away from a jab.

Norton threw a straight right hand, nailed him and broke his jaw.

During fights , my job in the corner was Angelo would take the mouth piece out, hand it to me and I'd wash the mouth piece.
That was particularly important if there was blood on it.
A lot of fighters have their mouthpiece put back in without cleaning.
and then if they get hit they swallow their own blood.
So I would always take the mouth piece and wash it in good cold ,water, ice water. I'd leave a little water on it so it would be moist, and then I'd hand it back to Angelo.

Against Norton , each round I was taking out the mouthpiece,and there was more and more blood on it.I could see it was a lot of blood after each round, because my bucket with the water and ice became red.
In every fight between rounds , I'd take the mouthpiece and put it in the bucket and there was just slobber on it.
But here, after each round I had to shake the mouthpiece to get all the blood out of it into the water ". Wali Muhammad.

In the immediate post fight interview in the ring, Norton was unaware Ali had a broken jaw at all , but several months later he could pin point when it occurred? BS

 

Well, the question was something like "Were you aware you broke Ali's jaw in the 1st round?" Without knowing the facts, or caring much about them, I'd say it's not unrealistic for him to change his statement after having plenty of time to rethink the events of the fight.

 

Even if it occurred during the LATE rounds,it shows how tough Ali was to keep going.

 

I honestly can't believe how a man who is as old as you claim to be can be so persistently stupid.

Evidence.

Norton is asked minutes after the fight whether or not he was aware Ali had a broken jaw.

He categorically states he is " unaware "

Months later Norton suddenly claims he can remember the moment in which he broke Ali's jaw during the fight.

Any sane, reasonable person would consider that as BULL ****.

Which brings us to you.

You have an agenda which goes as follows. You THINK you saw a punch that broke Ali's jaw in the 12th.

Consequently you cling to Norton's BS statement like a rat in a sewer, because it suits your own theory.

And your " proof " of said theory is there is no film of Ferdie Pacheco " attending to Ali's jaw between rounds.

I will state again. You have no medical grounding to give yourself the right to proclaim what should or should not have been done by Pacheco, nor indeed what " could " have been done by Pacheco in the circumstances.

You are simply pissing in the wind, second guessing.

 

Foxy's post below yours gives my view.

 

As far as I am aware the ONLY thing Pacheco could possibly have done to the damaged jaw would be to administer ice packs.

Now lets just go with the accepted opinion that his jaw was broken early. Does anyone seriously believe that Dundee would have let a wily old fox like Eddie Futch see that happening across the ring?

 

Question is, does Howard Cosell mention blood coming out of Ali's mouth earlier in the fight? Because he definitely mentions it in the 12th, that's a sure sign of a broken jaw. My guess is that Ali's camp stated it happened in the 2nd as an excuse for his poor performance and loss. If it is indeed true, that it was broke early, the doctor who treated him mentioned that Ali must have had a super human pain threshold to carry on with such an injury.

 

In fairness they didn't say the 2nd round at the time, they claimed the 1st round.

For me its all a matter of credibility.

One guy immediately claims his jaw was broken in the 1st. The other guy says he didn't even know ( at the time ) then some months later claims to remember the exact moment it happened.

No brainer I'm afraid.

Edit. Oops my bad. I forgot to mention Norton's memory recollection was distinctly at odds with his own trainer who claimed the broken jaw occurred in the round before Norton's claim.

 

Twisted logic. If Alis jaw was broken in round one or two Norton WOULD have realized something was wrong with it. The jaw breaking in round 12 lends much more credibility to the fact Norton did not realize in the heat of battle over less than 3 minutes that Alis jaw was broken.

The jaw breaking early comment was one way for Alis camp to make an excuse for the loss.

As mentioned Pacheko did not go near Alis jaw the entire bout. He is a physician. ..Alis personal physician. ..and he does nothing after round two or round 11 to help? No ice pack....nothing.

As mentioned all of this is old news that Foxi thinks is a revelation. Alis version was discounted 40 years ago by those in the boxing community. No evidence whatsoever supports the early round jaw breaking theory....none.