Why 87 Tyson beats 66 Ali...

Ali's jab mayve been blinding but against small powerful attacking fighters it was never enough to keep them off - Chuvalo arguably beat him, Cooper arguably beat him, Doug Jones arguably beat him, and he looked poor against Foley, Mildenberger and Patterson. Against tall jabber-movers, like Tucker, Tillis, Smith and Green, Tyson is winning mostly every minute of every round...

 

His jab ALONE wasn't enough but Tyson has struggled with jabbers, Pinklon Thomas was jabbing the hell out of him, Tillis kept his distance with his jab and Buster Douglas jabbed the absoloute crap out of him. Not to mention Lennox Lewis jabbing him.

Chuvalo was the victim of his jab but don't forget that Chuvalo was a 15 round fighter, and had the best chin in H.W History. Cooper caught him with a good shot, but was losing on the cards too (did you see how Ali's jab CUT Cooper so badly?). Doug Jones didn't beat him and how did he look poor against Foley? in WHAT way?

What? How did he look poor against Mildenberger and Patterson? Have you SEEN the fights? He was toying with Patterson!

Patterson, who had the same style as Tyson (peek-a-boo) and same reach struggled to close a distance, in fact Tyson remarked that Patterson was the fastest H.W ever and he couldn't do anything to Ali.

I give Tyson props to beating Ali wannabes, but he had his struggles, and NONE of those fighters had the PHYSICAL attributes that Ali had. That's what separated the Ali wannabes and Ali.

 

Are you real?

In the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, in both biographical books, and film ( none of which were challenged by Tyson or his handlers ) you are claiming he lived a clean, stable life, training religiously at the time he fought Tucker in August 87?

 

You are correct. I re-watched the Tyson v Tillis fight in it's entirety and it's true that Tillis against Tyson fought a lot like Ali did. (Although obviously not as good as Ali.) My apologies.
Tillis did stand inside with Tyson and went to the body on occasion, but overall he fought remarkably similarly to Ali.

As for the youtube video...actually a pretty decent analysis. I was expecting some half-arsed drivel to be honest, but the author put forth some very interesting and insightful comments.

I do feel though, that either he was being slightly disingenuous or just failed to tell the whole story.
Watching that first round, although Tillis did some nice work 'controlling' Mike as he puts it, he didn't land a single scoring punch. At best, he landed one.
He also received some thumping punches to the body, and later in the round got drilled with a great shot. (Not shown in the footage.)

I could turn that video on it's head and say 'oh look at how well Tyson evaded virtually all of Tillis' shots and landed some hard punches to the body.'

I realise that the point of the video was to showcase certain style similarities between Ali and Tillis, and the effectiveness of that style against someone like Tyson.
Point taken. I agree with much of it.

But the rub, if you ask me, is that it's extremely difficult to keep that up all night long, while also mounting an offense that will win you the fight. As Tubbs once put it (and I agree) "You can't finesse Tyson completely."

I would pick Ali in this matchup. Is it an ironclad pick? No. Would the fight be competitive and close? I think so.
I do feel Ali holds a stylistic advantage and has all the intangibles to beat Tyson. However, Tyson at his peak was extremely sharp and quick to capitalise on mistakes.
It would be a hell of a good fight, imo.

 

I think Ali would get a late stoppage. Tillis did many things right, but he didn't do what Ali could do. Ali clinched alot more (Tyson didn't like that), and he threw far more punches than Tillis, he also had heaps of stamina (was a 15 round fighter).

Tillis did get tagged, but I don't think that shot would tag Ali. It has a chance to, but Ali had great reflexes.

 

Sooner or later Ali's going to hit Tyson with his anchor punch just like he did to Liston and then it's over.

 

Tyson had so much overwhelming success..so early...adversity was a foreign land to him, on his accredited greatest night, the blowout of spinks, was the spinks fight really any kind of barometer ? Spinks looked like he was going to the Gallows.. with boxing being so much a mental endeavour where attaining superiority is concerned, I cant help but feel this physcological Man-child would be the victim of his own intimidatory success in this prospective match-up..and thats before the Skill sets come into play....

I think there is a clock on "Sprinter" Tyson ...early on he has the belief that he has intimidated prey in front of him..often he is right...he also has the belief that if not, he soon transport them to Cowedsvillie with a few of his heavy handed bomb-runs...often he is right....with the opponents Jumping off point soon to Follow...

But with Ali....do we really think he will be shackled with fear..? Ali danced nearly the whole first round round against Cleve Williams and if he decides to do that against Tyson i do not see the slightly Knock-kneed Tyson cutting off his escape routes, in short Ali does not have to be in a Danger zone at all times...Tyson does to inflict sufficient Damage, and he is not anywhere near the Constant and suffocating Aggressor say Frazier was... again i think Ali finds those breathing spots he needs to compose and execute his plan,

And thats not forget Ali rarely went all out for protracted periods...he didnt need to, he had so much in reserve i feel....so with the clock ticking on Tysons Effectiveness,,The Petulant Man-childs sands of time would run out as his resolve confidence and self belief are chipped away, it might even start before the fight courtesy of the chanted musings of one Boudini Brown Esq
Static in the Attic Supreme... Stop the shark swimming and it will drown..
Ali's Water Torture goes from early Jets to Late Torrents via Mid fight Flash Floods, Ali Late stoppage The Ears of the Bull are taken ..after a few obilatory Shuffles of course...

 

In the words of Ali himself "If you even dream of beating me you'd better wake up and apologize."

 

Go watch the first round of Biggs-Tyson. There is no better Ali imitator.

 

Tyson vs Ali = Tyson vs Lennox Lewis.
However Ali would've ended it earlier.

 

Tyson vs Biggs vs Tyson vs Lewis = Tyson vs Biggs KO in 15 seconds

 

Ali was exactly the type of puncher to beat Mike Tyson. What I mean is that Ali was not a big one shot type of hitter but he was a slashing type of puncher. The kind that busts up a man around the eyes. Combinations...

Mike Tyson took one a big punch very well. He physically had a terrific chin. When his opponent consistantly peppered him he didnt have the confidence and the ability to keep his own offense going the way a Warrior like Joe Frazier could.

Tyson would lose the edge of his agression and that would be all Ali needed. He would gain the time and the room to pepper Mike with those blinding flurries. Eventually Tyson tightens up, leans and throws one or two punches and looks to tie up himself.

 

Tysons ultimate weakness was his psychological issues, now if there is one fighter who was king of the psychological warfare game it was Ali.

Tyson frankly had the belief in timeframe OP identifies of being invincible (based on fact with regard to opponents faced), however Ali had faced such an apparently invincible character in Liston, who like Tyson won so many battles before he entered the ring just with his reputation and that stare.

The one hope Tyson might have had with regard to dealing with the psychological bombardment Ali would have unloaded from day one, had died 2 years previously, namely Cus D'amato. Cus was the only one with any chance of keeping Tysons head together, and frankly i don't think even he could have done so.

Tyson would have imploded, and then either fouled out or done a Duran, and say "No Mas".

 

Great post. I agree- I think Ali wins, but it isn't absurd to think Tyson couldn't.

Very astute observation, and one I've never thought of in this way- The dichotomy of Tyson and Frazier; Tyson can withstand huge single shots, but gets worn down by a guy consistently putting his hand on him. Frazier has serious trouble taking big single shots, but can take punishment all night and even turn up the heat if necessary...

I've just never thought of it quite like that. Good stuff.

 

A very astute post.

A good example would be in Tyson / Bruno 1 Frank nailed Tyson with a very good left hook, cum uppercut, Tyson stopped in his tracks and a split second later hit Bruno harder with a right hand.

In Tyson / Douglas he was totally confused and befuddled by Busters constant variation of lighter punches, and lost, as you say his edge of aggression.