What if Frazier and Ali fought in the 60s?

Things were just a bit different in those days - boxers fought until they nearly had one foot in the grave. Maybe I shouldn't phrase it that way. But, honestly, the refs, the corners, the ring side docs, none would be as intrusive and stop the match as readily as they do today.

 

Houdini's "evidence"

1. No one applied an ice pack to Ali during the fight.

2. At the end of a fight in which Ali was under prepared his mouth is open and Cosell says there is blood coming from it.

3. According to Houdini they first said it happened in round 1, then changed it to round 2.

4. He also says Ali's claim was discounted 40 years ago but won't name the names of those who allegedly discounted said claim.

This balanced against.

1. Norton didn't know Ali's jaw was even broken at the time of the fight.

2. Months later he claims to have remembered the punch that caused it in the 12th. ( garbage evidence )

3. Eddie Futch doesn't even agree with his own fighter, and claims he remembers the punch that did it in round 11. ( more garbage evidence )

So what I want to know is exactly who discounted Ali, and his cornermens claims. I am not interested in the names of the journals, I want the names of the writers.

I am sure there were plenty of covertly racist writers as late as 1973 who still considered Ali as a draft dodging n word, who would look for any and every opportunity to discredit him. So if Houdini would like to name these writers I want at least two other Americans to vouch that the guy concerned was known as a fair and impartial writer.

 

As opposed to being a despicable individual?atsch

 

Yes McVey...YOU are a despicable individual.

Again..if indeed Norton had broken Alis jaw in round one...which was changed to round two Norton would have been much more likely to know Alis jaw was broken. Since it indeed happened in the last minute to minute and a half of the fight he did not. So your absurd counter claim actually shows that Alis jaw was not busted in round one...or was it round two?

All the leading writers of Ring and BI. Dick Young of the NY Daily News, Red Smith of the NY Times. Every boxing trainer I have been associated with since that time including Atlas and Rooney. I have never met a trainer who believed Alis camps version ....ever aside from Dundee.

Futch's comments also ring true. It does not matter if Futch and Nortons comments don't jive perfectly....both say Alis jaw was broken very late in the fight. Whether in round 11 or 12 it's still the same bottom line which is..... Ali did not fight the entire fight with a broken jaw. He only fought a short time with it and Norton fairly and squarely beat Ali...not because Alis jaw was busted but because Nortons style completely threw Ali off.

Another Point is after the 11th round Ali is talking with his corner easily and without effort...look for yourself as the entire minutes rest you see Ali in his corner. After round 12 Ali can only wisper and Dundee tells Cosell..."Ali can't talk". So what happened in round 12 to cause Ali not to be able to talk? I will tell you...Norton broke his jaw.

Just like Ali was full of excuses after his bout with Frazier he had excuses for this one also....nobody believed this one however aside from the Ali nut huggers. I assume you are one but then again that's what you called me earlier in this thread...a bit confused are we?

I rate Ali the best all time but at the same time I insist on historical accuracy.

Still waiting on all your evidence that Alis jaw was broken in round one...or was it round two? So far you believe in something where no evidence exists.

 

Point is Mathis was unranked and had beaten nobody,in his whole career who was his best scalp Chuvalo?

 

Jesus, you really have it bad on this don't you?
Everyone who disagrees with you is a moron, a nut hugger , an idiot, a fool, or a "despicable individual" .I never once insulted you ,and I'm hardly responsible for those who did.

I never even read their posts.

You insist on historical accuracy? Who the f**k are you?
You ,along with every body else on this subject, produced NO DEFINITIVE PROOF, therefore everyones opinion is as valid as the next man's.

You need to get over yourself, Mr Precious. atsch

 

All I know is this guy curses at not just me but every poster in every post and you jumped all over me when I finally defended myself. One of the most despicable things I have seen on these boards.

I lived through those times in the US so I know far more than you or Foxy concerning this subject. I have no axe to grind concerning Ali...I rate him the best. It is not historically accurate to say that Alis jaw was broken early in that fight. No one believed that story...it's was an obvious excuse as Alis camp had excuses for losing to Frazier. It was a way to help explain a defeat in a fight he was supposed to win easily.

There is no evidence Ali was broken in round one...tons of evidence it was broken in round 12.

Answer me....why was Ali talking, moving his mouth easily and without issue in his corner after round 11 but could barely move his mouth to talk after round 12? in fact Dundee tells Cosell....Ali can't talk after the decision was announced.

Why no visible blood until the 12th round?

How is Ali taking full power shots on that chin for 11 rounds from a 215 pound Ken Norton? Understand Ali had a complete breakage on one side of his jaw.....completely broken through.

Why after fighting to win for 11 rounds Ali gets hit by a right hand in round 12 and immediately cowers? As Norton mentioned....Ali immediately fought defensive as one would expect he would, after a right hand broke his jaw in round 12.

Don't believe me you need to find the articles written by all the major sportswriters from that time. Those in California were particularly pointed concerning Alis claim...they just did not believe it at all. It was a way to downplay Nortons great effort in this fight. The writers in the major newspapers in Chicago and NY were also disbelievers as were those at the major boxing journals of that time Ring and BI.

This is not an attack on Ali...it's the historical truth.

 

F**k me if you think so I'm in trouble.:shock:

 

You lived through those times? And I didnt?
Joe Louis was champ when I was born.atsch
California? Isn't San Diego, Norton's home town in California?

You are not rational on this subject, I suggest you take a long hard look at your posts.
Boy did I get you wrong, my fault.
Christ ,you've mugged yourself big time on this thread.:-(

 

I got your back mate

 

Good man!:good Can't rely on McGrain ,he will be pushing me towards the mouth of the cannon.:yep

 

Me?

Your backing the most foul mouthed poster on these boards. You are the one who needs to think about their actions. Aside from being foul mouthed he is 100 percent wrong concerning this subject...as are you. You remain a truly despicable individual. He curses me in every post and you come down on me when I fight back! What kind of crap is that?

You don't like California newspapers...check out Chicago or NY. Don't like any US newspaper check out Ring or BI. You show your very low level by knit picking posts rather than addressing the scope. It's not a question of where you look...nobody bought Alis contention that the jaw breaking occurred in round one....which then was changed to round two when Alis camp realized that no serious blows landed in round one.

McGrain was right about you.

 

Chicago Tribune May 13 1973

"The decision really was not in doubt. The only controversy was when Alis jaw was broken. Ali said round one while Norton insisted it was in round 12. Dr. Fredrick Barnes who has a practice downtown looked at the xray of Alis broken jaw he feels that the injury had to have happened late in the fight. "The ends of the bones at the break were very close together. Had the break happened early and was beaten upon for many rounds that gap would have been wider". "With such a complete break I would have expected some level of injury to the other side of Alis jaw since it would be taking the full brunt of Nortons punches for so many rounds." Another claim by Ali was that he sprained his ankle but he spent the entire 11th round dancing and moving so just how badly could the injury have been?"

 

Hahahaha, so now there is some medical practitioner from Chicago who looks at an x-ray and declares this break happened late in the fight. Is this guy even an orthopedic specialist, or just another doctor?

Ali can be seen talking to his corner men in between rounds.

Whoopdee fvcking doo. Ali can also be seen talking to Pacheco in his corner AFTER the fight, whilst combing his hair. However he declines to give a post fight interview to Cosell, citing the broken jaw.

Where is the evidence on film of Ali TALKING to Norton throughout the fight, like he did to Liston, Frazier, Foreman, Folley, Terrell, and plenty of others?

It was part and parcel of Ali fights with the commentator saying " Ali is taunting x y z, " fill in whatever name you like. Yet in this fight, his mouth stays firmly shut.

And this fool Houdini DEMANDS the truth?

What a joke. He wouldn't know the meaning of the word truth, if it bit him.