Liston vs Marciano

Just being defiant won't get the job done ,Wepner was courageous and defiant, he finished like a human raw hamburger.
In his prime Liston could take heavy punches and give more back ,he also was a better boxer than Marciano, [ most were,] and possessed that pole of a jab to bust up the cut prone Rocky before he can get in range.

In close Rocky would find,Liston was good inside ,with short hard hooks and uppercuts, and not reluctant to move back and regroup if the situation required it.
Liston's lack of clever footwork would not be a factor because Rocky would be coming all night, and for once Liston may have the edge in handspeed to add to his tremendous reach advantage.

I just dont see Rocky's style being anything but a foil for Liston.
Prime for Prime
Sonny by tko

 

Liston had a step in jab not a defensive "step off jab" that would give Sonny the room he would need. With the wrong kind of jab he is crowded into Rocky range and tempo. Open to inside counters...It would be awful for Sonny having to dig deep taking hard punches whilst losing full leverage inside against a low crowding power puncher.

In close Rocky gets lower. What is Sonny going to hit? Liston has less target to aim at and less room because Rocky is all elbows, shoulders and much too close. Liston will lose most of his leverage. This is not a tall, slow longrange upright target waiting to get hit like Wepner or frozen victim like Harris who won't fire back.

what edge in speed? fighters like Marciano want opponents to reach out at them so they can slide inside. Liston only hammered home that jab successfully at slower taller upright fighters anyway. It was not a defensive range finding jab that kept world class swarmers at bay.

Listons prime was 1960. Nobody Sonny fought in 1960 could match Rockys best 4 opponents. Swapping punches at a higher level.

 

Fascinating fight! I agree Rocky would be swimming against the current for quite a while. I'd favor Marciano if the fight ended round nine or later, but till then I could see the fight ending anytime, anyway. (I also think that, should Marciano land an odd-ball, unexpected shot on Liston, thee ffect might be greater than many posters imagine).

 

I don't understand the too small comment. Tyson was heavier than Liston and Listons size would have made him one of Tysons smaller challengers. I understand the comparison between Marciano, Patterson and Tysons height but unlike Patterson and Marciano Tysons era was full of big men and his style was designed around fighting these men larger than Liston. Tyson was a package of speed, power and skill well beyond anything Liston ever saw,

 

Marciano himself said that Liston was the one fight he wouldn't have wanted.

 

Marciano would be coming to fight and Liston is going to get hit. Maybe Liston wins by T.K.O. but not nearly as quickly as some are saying.

 

This is a post that deserves ridicule. A man never stopped suddenly gets ktfo early in a fight against a habitual quitter.

 

Step in step out Marciano was badly marked up by jabs in several fights ,against an old Louis, "I couldnt avoid them,I just had to take them".
To pretend Liston's jab won't be a factor is silly. He can tag Marciano before he gets any where near him.
Liston didn't utilise his jab against small swarmers because he took them out early ala Floyd. You are assuming that Marciano would be dominant inside ,why?
He would be fighting a bigger ,heavier man IN HIS PRIME a two fisted heavy duty banger.

The hardest hitter he ever faced and one who, in his prime was very durable.
The average age of Marciano's 4 best opponents is 36 .75 years.
Two of those dropped him, one cut him bad enough that the referee was thinking of stopping it, and the other blacked both his eyes and lumped him up facially.
All those men were past prime.
Liston would be favoured to stop all of them .
This fight would not be a blow out but, imo it would end in a tko with only one winner
Charles Liston.

 

I have to agree that claiming Liston's jab wont have an impact on a fight with Rocky is just plain silly. He will continually nail Marciano with it on the way in, ( Liston's way in that is, because for sure he will go looking for him ) forcing him to back up all the time.

I think Rocky will have his moments, but the most likely outcome is Liston becomes the first man to stop Marciano between the 9th, and the 12th with Rocky finishing up with a face like a pizza.

 

Marciano slid inside faster jabs off quicker fighters than Liston. Marciano depended on the other guy throwing jabs. He wanted them. Listons jab was the WRONG kind of jab anyway. The Liston jab was tailored to reach taller statues who stood frozen at range. There is no evidence of his jab being a factor against low crowding swarmers.

Why is Sonny necessarily going to land before Rocky gets close? Usually marciano drew the other guy in from a crouch and came up to attack from the counter. Whilst he drew opponents into exchanging with him marciano never got himself stranded in no man's land or ate punches on the way in. This is either a myth or a confusion with crappy Stallone films. When Rocky got hit it was whilst he was within his own punching range where the other fellow had less leverage whilst Marciano shorter arms had the advantage. That's how he always managed to interrupt most combinations fired at him.

In Marciano, Sonny would meet an awkward man difficult to nail clean who always fired back forcing two way exchanges.

Since nobody can decide on Sonnys actual age who is to say Liston was not also 36.75 years old during his 1960 prime?

 

You've decided on Liston's prime being 1960, that does not necessarily mean we all agree. You talk about Marciano as though the rest of us haven't seen him.I bought his fights on Super 8mm over 40 years ago. The idea that Marciano's size would be a positive advantage to him versus Liston is one that I think you will find you are alone on.

Westphal and Johnson [Scrap Iron] and Besmanoff,are probably the shortest men Liston fought, none heard the last bell,Westphal didn't hear the second .

 

How close were Besmanoff, scrap iron Johnson and (cough cough) Westphal to all time greatness? I don't understand the point you make here? Are you saying these men had two handed world class power, all time great durability with the ability to force two way exchanges at a range that disadvantaged the opposition? Could Westphal, besmanoff and scrap iron counter punch or punch as frequently as even average pressure fighters?

Comparing Rocky Marciano with those guys is like comparing professional power tools with children's toys that look the same.

 

I'm saying Liston did not fight many short men , but those he did fight he kod . Therefore he had no problem with finding them with his punches.

Liston against an under 6foot Bethea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZQRExcO9aA

 

Comparing marciano and bethea is like comparing a power tool with a children's toy.

 

You're missing the point that you originally made, and what's more repeating your comparisons.