james j jeffries ATG NO!

There can be no doubt that Martin was regarded as being a class above Griffin.

 

Who beat better name fighters Griffin or Martin? I say Griffin.

Martin as stated was Ko'd often and early. From 1903-1904 martin only won two of eight fights! He was not viewed as a top guy in 1904. by 1905, Hart was the #1 contender. Jeffries said he would fight him if there was interest. There was not. If Hart was black, I'm pretty sure one or two posters here would claim Jeffries ducked him!

What fighters say, and what they do when a big purse is up can change.

 

Then you would be completely at odds with perceptions at the time.

Martin was seen as a top contender, and some even picked him to beat Jeffries, while Griffin was seen as a second tier contender.

This is hard to overlook.

 

Jeffries was offered two big purses to fight both McVey, and Johnson, he turned them down that is an undeniable fact.
You are the only one on this thread who thinks Griffin was better than Martin that is also a fact.

 

"It was stated after the fight that Johnson fought as he did to-night in order to demonstrate that he was entitled to consideration by Jeffries. Johnson's manager stated he would issue a formal challenge in behalf of Johnson at once to fight the champion of the world. Manager' McCarey of the Century Athletic Club announced that he would offer $15,000 guarantee for a match between Jeffries and Johnson, the battle to come on! here some time this winter"

October 14th 1904. Directly after Johnson had floored Denver Ed Martin 4 times ,and kod him in 2rds.

 

Here's what the Police Gazette thought of Jeffries refual to fight Johnson in 1904
December 3, 1904
FIGHTERS DRAW COLOR LINE
Jim Jeffries' repeated refusal to fight Jack Johnson, because of the latter's color, has given rise to considerable argument regarding his justification for such a proceeding. Jeff does not seem to care one bit how many people may knock him and even accuse him of cowardice in warding off Johnson with the old-time color line dodge. He won't budge from his position, notwithstanding the public clamor that he fight the negro champion.
Jack Johnson's record entitles him to a match with Jeffries and he is the only man now in sight who would seem to have a chance with the hitherto invincible rivet driver. Jeff will not add any to his popularity by sticking to his lately adopted color line. On his part, this position is most inconsistent, as Jeffries has fought more than one negro in the past, notably Bob Armstrong, in this city. Many people say Armstrong was the cause of Jeff's drawing the color line, because he broke his arm on Armstrong's head.
Ordinarily fighters don't make much of a hit when they draw the color line. The fighting game is not a calling that permits of such finely drawn social distinctions. The public does not care whether the champion in a certain class is black or white or green as long as he's a good, game fighter and willing to fight any deserving aspirant for his title without surrounding his championship pedestal with a lot of impossible and unreasonable conditions.
When a fighter draws the color line it is usually not far to seek for the "****** in the woodpile." A few years back many a first-class featherweight drew the color line on George Dixon. It's pretty safe to say that Tommy Ryan's principal reason for the color line was Joe Walcott. Even old John L. Sullivan had a bad case of the color line bugaboo. Peter Jackson was in his prime in those days. It's a cinch that Jimmy Britt's former color line was inspired by Joe Gans, but how quickly he forgot his scruples against a black skin when it looked pretty sure for him to beat Gans. Now that he has more confidence in himself, Britt will probably not mention the color line again.
So, taken on the whole, the color line is looked upon as a pretty shallow excuse for a good fighter to use in side-tracking a good match. There are but few who think Jeffries has any fear of Jack Johnson, but he, nevertheless, lays himself open to an accusation of cowardice in refusing to meet the husky negro.
Jeffries has a strong hold on the American people. He is a most popular champion. But a fighter is expected to fight, not to rest on his laurels, while there is a man in sight who has a possible chance for the title. Jeff's most partisan admirer must admit that Johnson has a chance. His record certainly gives him a stronger title to fight for the world's heavyweight championship than Jack Munroe had. Denver Ed Martin is rated a better man than Jack Munroe. Yet Johnson put him out in exactly the same time and method in which Jeff finished the miner.
The fight loving public wants to see Jeffries fight and fight soon. Jack Johnson stands ready. It's up to Jeffries to forget the color line until he has rubbed this big black speck off his title.

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Jeffries Thus Evades a Fight With
Clever Jack Johnson.

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Photo courtesy www.sports-photos.com
JACK JOHNSON.
Colored Heavyweight Champion of the World
Against Whom Jeffries Raises the Color Line.

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Jeffries was offered a $15,000 guarantee to fight Jack Johnson in 1904 he turned it down.

Jeffries was offered a $20,000 guarantee to fight Sam McVey in November 1903,, the fight to take place over 20rds at the Colma A. C.
This is his reply.
" I have made up my mind never to fight a negro again as long as there are whitemen in the field."Jim Jeffries November 5th 1903

NB Jeffries purse for his second fight with Bob Fitzsimmons was $14,346.

Jeffries stance on defending his title against a coloured boxer .
"I will not fight a negro!
If the public demands that I shall fight Johnson I will surely decline.
If Johnson wants to fight for the championship he will have to fight somebody besides me."
If I am defeated the championship will go to a white man for I will not fight a colored man" .
Boston Daily Globe Dec 14th 1903.


Later, justifying his decision to come out of retirement and challenge Johnson,Jeffries said.
" I am coming out of retirement just to show that the whiteman has superiority over the negro" Jim Jeffries Jan 12th 1910.

 

Jeffries would not have beaten Johnson imo , but he would have given him a hell of a lot better fight than he did in his comeback .If he had won he would now be top 5 imo.
I think he would have beaten McVey ,and Martin by stoppage, McVey giving him the harder tussle of the two. It's a shame he was so paranoid about risking his title against a black man,and the subsequent castigation should he do so and lose , that he wouldn't risk it.
His legacy would be drastically improved for me.


He was a great fighter for his time, if he had bucked the racist trend, and been successful, he would have been one for the ages.

 

I agree that Jim Jeffries would have beaten Sam McVey and Denver Ed Martin while he was the world heavyweight champion. McVey certainly didn't have enough experience and may not have been good enough for someone with Jeffries' ability even during his peak years. Martin may have been one of the most skillful boxers of his day, but lacked the durability to have much success against the best heavyweights of the time.

- Chuck Johnston

 

William Brady Jeffries manager , stated that Johnson was better than Jackson and that he had the best left hand of any one.
http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=LAH19100123.2.123.33.17#

 

Who beat the best name fighters, Holyfield, Louis or Ali?

 

Griffin beat Jack Johnson and drew with him twice...past his prime. Martin could not come close to this with the same guy!

As stated Martin had a glass body and jaw, and was KO'd seven times in three rounds or less. Griffin's prime by the way was in the 1890's.

When a big purse was up, Jeffries did return to fight Johnson. Many people of the times felt Jeffries was still the champion. Jeffries also offered Johnson a private fight as Champion, and Johnson went yellow and declined.

As for the crude Sam McVey ( Based on Paris film vs. Battling Jim Johnson ), he wasn't viewed as a top two guy while Jeffries was champion. Who cares if his management used the press to make an offer they knew would be rejected!

As I told you McVey walked away from boxing for a year and was a teenager in 1903 while Jeffries was champion!!!! In 1904 McVey did not win a fight, and by 1905 he was inactive.

 

Not sure what your point is here Matt. I would say Ali beat the best opponents of the three, and by a good margin.

 

Ex champion Jeffries fought Johnson to "redeem the honour of the white race ".To attempt to win back the title.
He would not entertain fighting him ,or any other negro for his title when he was champion.
And he many times reiterated this in print.

Those who saw him fight ,and historians today do not rate Mcvey as crude.

When Macarthy offered Jeffries a $20,000 gurantee to face him McVey had 11 fights according to CBZ[ Pollack says more ,]he had lost two 20rd decs to Jack Johnson and won his other 9, all by ko. it was not McVey's management that challenged Jeffries, it was the promoter who offered him the $20,000 guarantee .

The purse offered Jeffries to face McVey was nearly $5000 more than he earned for his defence against Fitzsimmons ,who was seen as old and washed up by the public going into the fight.

If Jeffries thought McVey was an easy touch ,why didn't he fight him, it was a lucrative defence , money for old rope?
We know the answer don't we?
I'ts the same answer why Jeffries refused $15,000 to fight Johnson .

Where McVey went after Jeffries had refused to fight him has absolutely nothing to do with him being refused a title shot by Jeffries.

Johnson asked Jeffries for a chance at his title in Harry Corbett's saloon.Jeffries said , I won't fight you for the title but I'll fight you in the cellar." Johnson replied ",I aint no cellar fighter"and walked out.

So Jeffries as champion, refuses to fight both McVey ,and Johnson, but because he offers to fight Johnson in the cellar of a saloon, and Johnson declines, Johnson is yellow?

Strange logic that.:huh

Nine months after refusing to fight McVey in November 1903 for a $20,000 GUARANTEE Jeffries defended his title against 8-3-2 Jack Munroe.This is a breakdown of the fighters purses.
"SAN FRANCISCO, Aug. 26 - Jim Jeffries
defeated Jack Munroe in the second
round of the fight for the heavyweight
championship here tonight.

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After two postponements the fight was de-
cided in this city tonight at Mechanics' Pa-
valion. The mill was under the auspices of
the Yosemite A.C. and drew a large crowd.
Besides the title the men fought for a purse
of $25,000. Sixty-five per cent of this sum,
or $16,250, went to the winner, while 35 per
cent, or $8,750, was the loser's balm."

Jeffries stated he lost money on the fight, and would retire rather than fight another no hoper for peanuts.

"McVey was not viewed as a top two fighter?"

And Jack Munroe was?

Please stop with the bull ****.

Can you not get your head around the fact that Jeffries would not defend his title against a man of colour, no matter what the financial reward?

He was up front about it, can't you be?