Gimme 5 names you would fancy over 1973 Foreman.

I wouldn't bet the mortgage against Foreman in any fight ,he hits too hard.
Ali
Holmes
Lewis
Louis
Johnson
Some would beat him, maybe some wouldn't.

 

No one beats Foreman in 73' except Ali. I just don't see anyone else not being blown out within 4 rounds. Whoever faces him, is going to get cornered and butchered with bodyshots.

 

I will work with fighters where there is film to back it up:

Louis, Liston, Ali (obvious).

From there it gets more complicated. I see the problems for Foreman and vice versa:

Dempsey, Schmeling, Walcott, Holmes, Tyson, Lewis.

 

jeffries, johnson, dempsey, tunney, godfrey, schemling, sharkey, baer, louis, ali, quarry, holmes, holyfield, lewis over the young foreman. older george would do better against some not as well with others. but no one should bet the house against someone that dangerous

 

To begin with, was 1973 Foreman even the best early 1970s version of George? Nobody had extended him since Peralta II at that stage, so he might have been regressing as Liston did between Machen and Sonny's loss of the title.

Foreman did not deck anybody beyond round five during his first career, and did not stun anybody severely past his staggering of Jimmy Young at the outset of round seven. I think there are a few from his own era that were shrewdly evaded.

Watching Quarry-Spencer, I have a rough time seeing George getting out of that one with Jerry. What Foreman says about avoiding JQ in 1973 and 1974 today is one thing, which many might dismiss as charity to Jerry's memory. But when asked during post fight interviews prior to his first reign about taking on JQ, he is EXTREMELY hesitant and evasive in response. What he says today is strongly supported by what he was indicating on camera then.

Jerry was far more hittable by 1970 than he was in 1968 and early 1969, and much quicker than George. He could be made to gas, but was absolutely not overpowered early with brute force. Foreman would have to key his jab to better JQ from long range, not George's mentality during his original title run. Even in 1973, the way Jerry seemed unaffected by the power of Lyle, Shavers and Mac Foster raises questions about the outcome of an actual title bout between the two. JQ looked pretty good as his upset of Lyle concluded.

Somebody else one did not overpower quickly with brute force, OR wear down over the long haul with attrition was Bonavena, who not only had strength and punch resistance, but was perfectly capable of skipping with quick lateral movement, as he displayed with the glue footed Chuvalo. Ringo would need to be bested over a longer distance.

Young-Lyle II saw Jimmy take 11 of 12 rounds from Ron. Young was in the same heat George felt in Puerto Rico. Cooney was never able to dent Jimmy's head or body with those hooks, and Young came off the deck to roar back against Shavers in a rematch virtually everybody had Jimmy winning. If 1973 Foreman hurt Young as 1977 Foreman did, George might well be far wilder and wasteful in his follow-up, and expend even more energy than he did blowing round seven in San Juan.


Historically, there were a few heavyweights from the 1960s who would have presented serious obstacles for him. Ali and Liston have already been mentioned, but Machen and Ingo have not.

Look at what Ingo does to Eddie before ambushing him. Johansson draws Machen in with a continual retreat. Think Foreman won't take that bait? Watch the Swede knock out Ten Hoff. Think Ingo won't be able to reach George's chin? Look at the outcome of Johansson's bouts with Cavicchi and Erskin. Think he won't be able to drown Foreman in deep water?

Ingo could be extremely cautious, to the point of timidity, and was slammed for that behavior in the 1952 Helsinki Games, getting disqualified for non-effort against Ed Sanders. With 1973 George, it pays off. When Foreman cuts off the ring early, he gets hit and hurt with the Bingo. That buys Johansson enough time to outlast and drown him late.

Eddie Machen was ambushed by Ingo, but he certainly would not be by the much slower Foreman. He fought peak Liston with one good hand, and had little difficulty getting to the final bell. What happens if Eddie boxes 1973 George with the same right he used to deck Nino Valdes with a body shot?


Max Baer would be an absolute nightmare for Foreman once they were in the ring. George would be facing punch resistance, 20 round stamina, a rapid reverse gear and lethal power. The Larruper actually clowned Galento after getting hit by Two-Ton. Gee, I wonder how Foreman would react to having his own power get mocked like that?:think


Actually, I'm thinking about LHWs who would beat 1973 Foreman, and can't see George producing an answer for Loughran before 15 rounds were up. Aside from Foreman's pigmentation, he offers nothing Tommy didn't prevail in the ring over. Granted, George could win this with a single shot, but if Madcap Maxie couldn't do it, what are the slower Foreman's chances before he gets too tired to muster the necessary force?

Unlike Loughran, Tunney had a first rate chin. And just like Tommy, Gene was afraid of nothing. One did not want to take on Tunney with a deficit in speed and stamina.

Billy Joiner has never stopped wincing over his recollection of taking on Liston twice. But Levi Forte had a different take on his ten round experience with Foreman which Ali keyed on in Kinshasa, and it was the same observation made by Randy Shields and others about WW era Hearns. Take George past the early rounds, and he loses something. But as cleverly as Norton guided through the minefield of massive sluggers between Garcia I and Shavers [only getting exposed for his shot at Foreman in Caracas], so too did George get steered through the ranks of spoilers, survivors and durable stylists. Guys like Joiner, Henry Clark and Jimmy Ellis might have done him a world of experiential good. [Norton, on the other hand, had NOTHING to gain by taking risks against the likes of Jeff Merritt, Mac Foster, or Ron Lyle, and other HWs of their ilk.]

Quality matchmaking can certainly make a favored individual look better than he really is, but might not do that particular competitor much good when everything's on the line. Even Foreman-Peralta III could have provided extremely useful development for George. [Goyo would have certainly provided it, as he proved with Lyle 2X to close his career in 1973. Greg would have been a more credible challenger for George than Roman was.]

One guy I absolutely do bet the rent on Foreman over is Tyson. Mike's peek-a-boo gives him no chance to stand his ground when George plants his mitts on those broad shoulders and shoves back. At least a verteran Patterson was able to move laterally on physically powerful heavyweights like Bonavena and Chuvalo, but they were also in Floyd's size range. Tyson is not going to retreat, slip and counter off the ring ropes and out of the corners like JQ, and he's not going to outmaneuver George as Jerry displayed he could do with Spencer. How's Mike going to win off the back foot with his 71 inch reach and 5'10" height against a 6'4" aggressor with an 82 inch reach like that? Tyson can't come forward, and he can't stand his ground. Foreman would at the least be holding Mike at arms length, making it look like a man against a boy. Even Frazier could apply movement with a decent base. No version of Tyson does as well against 1973 Foreman as a creaking Smoke did with George in 1976.

 

Liston, Ali, Tyson, Lewis, Louis, Holmes ..

 

Corrie sanders
Holyfield
James toney
Both klitschkos

 

good analysis by mr. anubis - i forgot about loughran and walcott

 

Excellent post, anubis- I tend to see Foreman in the same light you do; I'm a reformed Foreman overrater...

The Johansson thing is a stretch, but acceptable with the argument you make. I've always thought Baer would be a very evenly fought match, as both have massive power, but both have different tendencies and attributes that could make it interesting, such as the contrast between Baer's conditioning and Foreman's aggression and output early on. One would win over the other.

I must disagree with your assertion that Foreman is Tyson's personal nightmare. I used to think the same as you assert, which is obviously sound logically and many people hold the same opinion of the fight. Recently, I've come to believe that Foreman is rather a sucker for fast hands, counterpunching, and moving after the punch/combination....

Tyson beats Foreman to the punch and easily slips ansd rolls under Foreman's big punches. Tyson has much better footwork than you're giving him credit for too- he punches and pivots out of corners and off the ropes.

Foreman is basically defenseless; his offense is his defense. Tyson counters Foreman to death. The first wide punch Foreman slogs in that misses, Tyson capitalizes on. It will be a counterpunching clinic.

Tyson also has an excellent chin, so bombing him out like Frazier or Norton isn't happening. If Foreman gets him, it'll have to be one-way traffic, and for rounds on end. All of Tyson's knockout losses were from sustained beatings lasting 8 or more rounds.... I doubt Foreman has the stamina to keep that up, and that's assuming Tyson won't be punching back and landing first, which he will be.

Foreman's sloppiness would be his undoing here. Tyson feeds on those who miss in a firefight. Watch early Tyson when his opponent gets aggressive and even tags Tyson, he slips, blocks, then counters them with huge shots. Tyson was very effective against aggression coming his way. Thats when he produced huge shots that either knocked the other guy out or hurt him.

Tyson is Foreman's personal nightmare.

 

Very few I would be willing to bet on?

I believe I would take Holmes as my lock
Jersey Joe Walcott as my dark horse/under dog
Louis, Ali, Holyfield, Liston, Marciano, Johnson as my 50/50 guys
Lewis, Vitali, Tua, Tyson, Dempsey, Frazier, Bowe as my not very likely, but it wouldn't shock me type of guys

 

1) '80 -'82 Holmes
2) '00 -'03 Vitali(yeah I said it)
3) Almost any version of Ali, obviously
4) '91-93 Holyfield
5) ?

I know a lot of people are picking Louis, but I honestly think young Foreman would maul him.

 

I'm not for over rating the guy or under rating him … the Foreman that fought Frazier and Norton and even Ali was a very strong, talented , murderously punching man .. against Frazier and Norton he fought in controlled rages … his jab was ramrod, his hooks and uppercuts sharp … he was no wild swinging madman .. his issue was he was a haedcase .. he drank his own Kool Aid and began to believe his own press … you saw it a bit in the wild swings against Roman … it still took all the ability of a near prime Ali, with Ali's size, strength, chin and over all skill to survive those early rounds in Zaire ..

Styles do make fights and that Foremen, in my opinion, still destroys most of the all time heavyweight crop … only the nest of the best could have survived him, warts and all … to say a Max Baer or a Jerry Quarry beats him to me is a hell of a reach … Foreman could have defeated Quarry on his jab alone .. there is always the shot he fights stupid but if George fought smart it is a different matter altogether … Ingo goes in a round or two ..

 

Quality reply, and props to you for reading all that!

Let's see if our comments provoke any further discussion. The divergent opinions on Tyson are pretty well articulated.

 

I wouldn't favor any 5 over Foreman, in fact I'd really only outright favor 2, but here are quick thoughts on maybe the 5 with the best chance.

Any version of Ali from Liston I to Frazier III and Holmes are my locks for this. I'm convinced that a prime version of either guy is Foreman's absolute kryptonite.

Liston is about 50/50, especially given that he may hold a psychological edge over George from George's youth.

If Lewis fought right he could neutralize a lot of Foreman's strengths, the big question would be could he do it effectively enough and long enough to avoid being caught by a big shot.

I'm going to pick Walcott as a potential dark horse to out slick and out move Foreman.

Also, I think Holyfield may rate a mention as another potential dark horse.

I think a lot of aggressive, come forward fighters like Marciano, Frazier, Dempsey, and Tyson would probably be walking into a buzz saw. Tyson may have the most success out of that group, due to his speed and the movement he had at his best, but I'm not convinced that's enough.

 

I disagree that Foreman handles Tysons peek a boo well. The Foreman destroys Tyson popular opinion is based off of Foremans salesmanship, conjecture and Tyson never actually fighting him. Foreman insisted that Fraziers destruction is an example of what he would do to Tyson. Tyson was a much different fighter than Joe; style wise he was bigger, stronger more powerful and had been trained to fight and KO the big fighters of his time. There were few sub 200lb fighters in Tysons era and the fighters close to Foremans prime size were destroyed. I say a 225lb verson of Foreman is beaten up by Tyson if Mike can take the smash without blinking he can take Foremans wild punches. Yes I would put Ruddocks smash against Foremans best power shot. And Tysons speed, power, accuracy and strength vs Foremans wild undisciplined swinging for the fences style of 1973 do not match up well. I pick Tyson for the same reason I select Joe Louis short powerful accurate punches at blinding speed.

Tyson, Holmes, Lewis, Vitali Klitchko, Joe Louis