Gimme 5 names you would fancy over 1973 Foreman.

This is a great analysis Wanderer. Quarry or Young, when Foreman was at his peak & not stifled by fear of gassing, would have few betters. He had flaws, but they can be overstated. Even against Ali, when he was exhausted at the end of 8, Ali was illegally hanging on & pulling him down, (very tiring) not a sharp night for George, Ali rolled with the punches & leaned against the loose ropes expertly, & still was out on his feet at one point.

 

I appreciate it- I enjoy all of your posts, no matter how lengthy .

I disagree with the assertion of others that Louis could pull it off, but only because his chin and would let him down here. Aside from the chin issue, he would beat Foreman with the same tools that Tyson would; fast handed counter punching.

Trying to use Frazier's fight against Foreman as an indication of Tyson's potential performance against Foreman is flawed because Tyson has twice the handspeed, more power, more accuracy, and more punch variety, courtesy of his much bigger arsenal and using his right hand as an actual weapon.

Tyson's head movement wasn't as rhythmic, therefore not as predictable. Add to that Tyson was always looking to counter off that head movement, regardless of which way he dipped. Frazier was bobbing in rhythm and coming up with left hooks only half the time, which is quite a bit easier to read and time with punches. In other words, Frazier was bobbing to make the other guy miss and time his own hooks, but with constant head movement in the form of that bobbing. Tyson was more efficient in that almost invariably, he countered off of his head movement, and that was in reaction to a specific punch coming his way or in the form of a feint to the other side.

Tyson could fall victim to the serial clincher, but that's not Foreman. Foreman wanted room to unleash, and whether the mythical ref allows Foreman to push Tyson off or not, they both need to be mid-distance to land their money shots. Neither guy cared to move and jab from the outside and neither guy wanted to do much inside fighting. The difference here is that Tyson would be dipping side to side and countering while Foreman keeps his head upright. This scenario favors the guy with much faster hands and some semblance of defense.

So what are Foreman's advantages over Tyson, really?

Chin? Debatable; Tyson has one hell of a chin himself- I think it's fair to say they are equally capable of hurting each other.

Power? See above. I'll take accuracy and handspeed with less power over power that lands sporadically.

The one thing I'll concede is their KO% against title opponents, which Tyson drops from 89% (fighting non-title opponents) to 63%. Foreman had 3 decisions in 37 wins going into his match with Frazier. He went 5-1 with 5 KO's in his title fights. Tyson clearly relies on other skills than power once the competition gets "World Class"...


Now, what does Tyson have on Foreman?

Handspeed, combinations, accuracy, defense by a landslide, and conditioning.


Go watch early Foreman and imagine him fighting a guy who has some defense some steam to pop back with, and the handspeed and accuracy to get it there...

 

You might want to concede the 5+ inches of height and 10+ inches of reach, too.

 

Foreman's height is a non-issue. He doesn't use his height for jabs and using range, and being taller only helps Tyson accomplish what he wants to do anyway; get under the punches to counter with his own...

This is a scenario where being taller with a longer reach doesn't equal an advantage; it has to do with how the fighter uses those advantages.

 

I don't think Foreman's height and reach advantage are the be-all, end-all factors, but I definitely disagree with the notion that they're non-issues.

 

I think to beat big George you need

1) A great chin
2) Be sound defensively
3) Good stamina
4) Good movement
5) Have tremendous determination, because George will get some lick in.

So for me, off the bat, that's Ali and Holmes. Those are the two I feel most comfortable in picking. I have no hesitation in thinking both would beat George.

I think these guys definitely have a good to decent chance:

Jack Johnson
Jersey Joe Walcott
Sonny Liston
Vitali Klitschko
Tony Tucker
Lennox Lewis

50/50:

Tyson
Louis
Greg Page
Michael Spinks
Tony Tubbs
...

 

Pretty much how I have it!

 

I'll give you 6 off the top of my head...

Jack Johnson
Joe Louis
Sonny Liston
Muhammad Ali
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson

 

So you would actually bet money on those fighters beating Foreman? (if you are a gambler)

 

:good

 

Dempsey Liston Ali Louis Holmes. Picking overrated Lenox Lewis is a Joke.

 

I would also give Bowe and Tyson a shot.

 

Not even close..:-(

 

So how is Lewis a joke and Bowe have a shot?

How does that work?

 

Good response but let me caveat the power piece. A handfull of Tysons opponents were under 215 lbs most were larger and heavier than even Foreman in his prime. Foreman fought a handful of fighters who were over 215 lbs he typically outweighed his opponents by quite a bit. When Foreman returned he trimmed down to 237 within 15lbs of his prime and found he didn't have the power, strength or weight to overpower the larger modern heavies.