Marciano v Bowe

-So you vouch for this "several weight division" business? What division is between CW and HW that I'm missing?

-I already gave my opinion on Marciano/Bowe and have provided analysis, analogies, examples throughout this thread in support. Not sure what else I can do. I can't produce the damn fight.

-Are you going to keep asking the same question until you get an answer you like? That's not going to happen. Why not question the people picking Bowe so aggressively and force them to go into the depth that I have? There responses seem to be lacking in contrast to mine.

 

To keep this on topic, Bowe could beat Marciano.

I'm not sure why favoring someone in a fantasy match up means I have to completely right off the chances of the other guy.

 

By using a logical approach, not the fairly random one enforced by history, a history which reflects an era of much smaller men. I will repeat myself once more as comprehension does not seem a strong suit in these parts.

"So, yes, were the scale of weight divisions to follow a logical, not historical, progression, Marciano would be several divisions below a Riddick Bowe. I have not even discussed the ridiculously diminutive proportions of Marciano's limbs... Times were when midgets could rule the roost. Them times are gone... but not forgotten."

If you can not comprehend this, I can do nothing for you but may assist you in the writing of a missive of complaint to whatever state educational facility matriculated you.

 

I think Bowe was durable, had size and took a good punch but was easy to hit, took too many punches and did not fight like a big man....I think Joe Louis chops him down, Dempsey may be too quick for him but stamina is key over 12 rounds here, He would outweigh Marciano and have height on him but we have to remember the Holyfield he beat had heart issues at the time and did not show the stamina that he showed before and after. I could see a Marciano work-rate & power taking its toll on Bowe who was for me not a great fighter but probably 4-5 of the best Big men

 

What divisions?

Marciano's weight applied to modern guidelines falls into the Cruiser range. Bowe is still a Heavyweight. That is only one division difference.

You can't invent weight divisions to make your argument sound stronger.

 

So, you are saying the difference between a 185 pound fighter and a 235 fighter (being that both are fit and in shape) is the same between a 154 pound and a 160 pound fighter.

Got ya.

 

So, the difference between 115-130 lbs is 5 divisons! While a 215 and 230 lb man share the same division.

The intervals between classes gradually increase the higher you go up in weight.

As for now:

175-200 is Cruiser 200-unlimited is HW

The difference between a Cruiser and HW is one division.

 

No he didn't. All medical tests found no evidence of heart problems, and Holyfield claimed some faith healing nonsense sorted him out.

As one poster asked earlier. How come we don't get threads claiming Vasquez, or Marquez would flatten Welter weights, or 154 guys? Why is all this garbage restricted to the only white undefeated Heavyweight, who would only be a Cruiser today, and not even a big one at that?

 

Regarding the "several weight divisions" digression, it's obvious that Seamus isn't saying that there ARE several weight divisions between light-heavy and heavy, but rather that there SHOULD BE (and would be, if boxing followed a consistent pattern, even allowing for the increased gaps between divisions at the heavier levels).

One doesn't have to agree with him, but when responding to his post, don't ignore the part that says:

"were the scale of weight divisions to follow a logical, not historical, progression, Marciano would be..."

[emphasis added]. Clearly, he's speaking hypothetically.

 

And I already said:

"You can't invent weight divisions to make your argument sound stronger."

Being unlimited, the HW division will always produce the largest discrepancies in size. It also always has the most shallow talent pool of any division.

The modern weight classes are a mess anyway, that's why you so see so many fighters bouncing around chasing gold and marquee match ups. The more divisional titles, the more opportunties, and the better it is for business. "I'm never going to beat this guy for the title, but hey, if I put on 3 lbs, I can move up and claim the belt that just got vacated." Don't delude yourself into thinking there is a logical scientific breakdown of these current weight classes.

 

I have two words to this bull****:

Henry Armstong.

 

I agree with you on the lower end of the spectrum, but on the higher end of the spectrum, I think the reason is simply that back in the day, there weren't enough really big men to justify making a higher weight limit. That's not the case now. The introduction of the cruiserweight division was an attempt to partially rectify that - it recognized that 190-pound fighters were really at a disadvantage fighting as "heavyweights."

It could be reasonably argued that it doesn't go far enough. That there are enough skilled, big fighters out there that even a 205-pounder is unfairly disadvantaged. I'm not saying that's necessarily the case, but it wouldn't surprise me to see a "super cruiserweight" division introduced at some point, and I don't think it would be the worst thing ever.

Recognizing that there will always be the biggest discrepancies in the heavyweight division doesn't really answer the issue, as the question is what the minimum should be. You could eliminate the cruiser and light-heavy divisions and say everyone over 160 is a heavyweight, but it would obviously be a stupid idea, because there many good fighters over 160 who wouldn't have a chance at the bigger heavyweights. As athletes get bigger and stronger, that minimum number increases.

But Seamus's point isn't about the divisions; he's just using them to illustrate his point. Let's say we lived in a hypothetical world where nobody weighed over 145 pounds. So we have all of the boxing weight divisions from lightweight on down, and we say that everyone above 135 is a heavyweight. And we think that someone like Sugar Ray Robinson is the greatest heavyweight in history.

Then along comes a full-size Bob Foster. Well, they're in the same weight class - they're both over 135. It would be insane to pick Robinson over Foster. That's easy to see, because we recognize that between lightweight and light heavyweight, we have a bunch of divisions - welter, middle, super-middle, etc. But those divisions are arbitrary, and we shouldn't need them to recognize that Robinson ain't gonna beat Foster.

Seamus is saying (as I read his argument) that it's the same thing when you pick Marciano over a top modern big heavyweight. Are they both heavyweights? Well, yeah, sort of. But in my hypothetical world, so are Robinson and Foster. The weight limits are purely arbitrary, and if they followed the logical progression, and there were a bunch of divisions between cruiser and "super heavyweight," it would be obvious that picking Marciano over Bowe is like picking Robinson over Foster.

But somehow in the minds of people who routinely pick Marciano over Bowe, Lewis, the Klitchkos, etc., they say, "Well, they're both heavyweights," and thereby minimize what is in reality a very significant difference, obscured by the fact that the boxing powers that be don't recognize that difference in the form of distinct divisions.

Of course, one can point out the fact that Marciano DID, in fact, beat some much bigger men. But that doesn't mean he's going to beat Bowe, any more than the fact the Robinson could beat bigger men - light-heavyweights, even - means that he could beat Bob Foster. Maybe Riddick Bowe is no Bob Foster, but he could at least be Joey Maxim.

I realize I'm getting long-winded here, so I'll wrap it up much more concisely. Seamus's argument is simply that the fact that Mrciano and Bowe are in the same weight class (or one off, now that there are cruiserweights) is an accident of boxing history. - outdated history, at that. The classes - with their arbitrary limits - shouldn't hide the fact that ere is a HUGE (and significant) difference in size between them.

None of which is the be-all, end-all of the Bowe vs. Marciano argument, but it's a valid point.

Seamus - apologies if I've misrepresented your position. If so, it was unintentional.

 

WTF has Henry Armstrong got to do with

1. Former Bantams fighting Light Middles, or Welters?

2. Marciano fighting talented guys 50+lbs heavier than him?