I have no problem in anyone picking Ali as the best heavyweight ever; it would be hard not to have him in the top 5. My problem comes when people have him best pound for pound. I think there have been much better fighters at lower weights, with greater all round ability. Where would you put Ali in pound for pound terms?
He's up there. How can there be better ability than being almost universally viewed as one of the two best guys at the weight ever? Heavyweight fighting is a slightly different game than the lower weights, and Ali had a blend of fantastic qualities not many other greats share.
I agree about his ability at heavyweight, but if you scaled several fighters up, I think they would beat Ali. There are lots of fighters who could do things Ali couldn't. Ali did certain things fantastically well, but wasn't as well rounded as many, in my opinion.
You would maybe rate him in top 20!?..Ok here we go Elroy, by all means grace me with your reasoning and for save sake go ahead and list 19 HW's that you would rank better than Ali and why...Quick hurry up and hit Google cause I know u cant name 19 HW's on your own. And please define "mythical Ali compared to Actual Ali" bases on record, stats, opponents, and how many times he was champion!:shock:
This is what I mean. I have a book called the 100 greatest boxers, and they have Ali at number 1. Ray Robinson was at 2. Imagine a heavyweight Robinson? He'd be better in most departments for sure. There are scores of others. I rate him highly as a heavyweight, and he had great attributes, but there have been better fighters overall.
Have I misunderstood "pound for pound" South? I took it to mean for example if Duran and Ali fought a mythical match where they weighed the same, who would win? Maybe Elroy(usually my sparring partner!) meant this, too?
Yes, but consider that "scaling fighters up" won't work, because its a different game at heavyweight; different qualities go further there... Thats what made Ali so special and a p4p consideration. He had the footspeed of a much lower weight, not to mention uncanny handspeed and accuracy. The fact that he was essentially a "scaled up" MW or WW made him so successful. Think about it: how many WW's or MW's fight like a HW? None that have made any noise is the answer. The heavier fighters that bring the qualities of a lighter fighter always do good/great things.
Im not gonna dispute that alot of people and sports writers/ boxing experts would have SRR above Ali in an ATG ranking. No I could not imagine a HW Ray because its just not how your supposed to think when ranking 1 through 5 or even 1 through 10 top greats. At HW I have Ali #1 all day long, but ATG including all weight classes I would generously still have him top 3 if not top 2. You dont have to be an Ali fan to step back and acknowledge what he did, who he did it against and how he did it. I dont care about what came out of his mouth I only care about what he did in the ring which was nothin short of miraculous! Even Foreman (who got brutally KO'd by the man) admits Ali is and should be ranked #1 amongst HW's.
Yes, in a way, but again, if you look at it strictly that way, it excludes heavier fighters and all the p4p entrants would be feathers and lightweights... I take it to mean how they do against the field; how they do in overall ability. Its very subjective and something that requires clarification by someone much smarter than me.
I think you put it pretty well! I agree it's very hard to define. As a heavy, I have Ali and Louis as the 2 standouts. Gil Glancy said the same. I do stick to my argument, although I respect and acknowledge what you say about heavyweight being a bit different regarding attributes.
I'll add that I don't personally place Ali top 5 p4p. I don't really make lists, but if I did, Ali may not make it top 10 p4p. So many fighters proved themselves against bigger opposition or higher weights they shouldn't have done that well in that they take up that real estate. That's the disadvantage of HW: no bigger mountains to climb.
Why the hell would anyone put Ali against Duran at any weight??..Thats just dumb, and then rank them off what you think the outcome of this ******ed fantasy would be...Nonsence!!
No, that's not what pound-for-pound means at all. There is no way to project what a heavyweight Duran would be like. Similarly a lightweight Ali. It's totally impossible. Where is the middle ground? Pound for pound simply means that, weighing up criteria such as overall ability, quality of opponents, overall accomplishments and that sort of thing, we can measure up different champs from different divisions to find a mythical 'pound for pound' best. It was never intended to try and match up champions of different weights in a mythical fight.
I have a hard time figuring where HW's should be ranked p4p. For some reason I just have trouble with it. When I do a list Ali seems to come out around 5 or 7.