Jack Dempsey, we need you now !

Who ever I was responding to was claiming that Dempsey would fight at 225 today which raises all kinds of questions. Was he not at his giant slaying best when weighing 180 against Willard? Is this an acknowledgement that to compete in the modern division a heavyweight can no longer be 180 or 185? Do all Classic heavyweight match-ups incorporating certain eras need to be made even more fantastical by inventing new, non-existent fighters from old ones?

 

Rickard put bums in the seats by successfully hyping no-hope lightheavies, Argentine novices without a lick of skill (seriously Firpo makes Wach look like Holmes) and when in doubt some dude Harry Greb already beat to a pulp.

 

It wasn't because a Fred Fulton, a Battling Levinsky, a Billy Miske, a Jess
Willard, a Tommy Gibbons, a Bill Brennan, a Luis Angel Firpo was so bad,
it was because a Jack Dempsey was so GOOD.
Whose opinion is more valid HONESTLY, yours S or the opinion of Sam Langford, Mickey Walker, Gene Tunney, Jack Sharkey, Max Schmeling, Ray Arcel, and the two hundred veteran sportswriters of the 1950s who voted
Jack Dempsey the greatest heavyweight they had seen by a LARGE MARGIN ? . So, I ask the jury which opinion is more valid , the opinion of Seamus, a man who has never seen Dempsey fight NINETY YEARS later
or the considered opinions of the hundreds of boxing experts listed above
who saw the great Manassa Mauler in his very prime ?. I rest my case !...

 

Ducking the coloured heavyweights wouldn't mean much today would it?

As to the rest of the best competition ,that can only be Greb ,Jeannette ,Langford,and Johnson were too old when Dempsey was champ..

How do you think the five foot eight inch, one hundred and seventy pounds tops, average punching,[for a middle,] Pittsburgh Windmill would fare today in the heavyweight division, poor though it undoubtedly is?:think

 

beware the bronze bomber :rasta

 

Can't say, that I disagree with you here, Burt... If all those experts thought Dempsey was a great fighter, it's a bit silly for people to come on here, and pretend he wasn't!

Like in that Mayweather vs Zivic debate, we had a couple of months back. A few posters (myself included) spoke up on Floyd's behalf, while you were sure Zivic would be too tough and experienced - but instead of spending dozens of posts arguing back and forth, you wisely said: ESB should decide which opinion is closer to the truth... Let the ESB posters decide. And of course the vast majority of posters here agreed with you. Which certainly gave me something to think about - and I now have to admit, that a win for Whitaker probably isn't the most likely result.

Which brings me to the Ali vs Louis poll we had here on Classic just the other week. In this poll 72% voted for Ali - and only 28% for Louis. Now I know, you have always felt, that Louis would ko Ali (I even remember you saying, that you would bet your life on it!)... so I was wondering, if the fact that the knowledgeable posters here on Classic overwhelmingly picks Ali, has changed your mind - so you now maybe realize, that the most likely result is a win for Ali?

 

I must admit it is pretty ironic that Elroy, and Rusak are getting all this flak from what I believe they call ( OTNB's ) for saying that todays better class giants would annihilate the old timers. Yet they then say they would want Dempsey, ( or perhaps Marciano as well ) to weigh 35 - 45 lbs more than they did, after blatantly arguing that size and weight have nothing to do with it.

The old saying is true.

A good big un, always beats a good little un. It is hardly the fault of todays modern guys that Carnera, and Willard were plums.

 

I wonder how seriously his opinion would have been taken had he espoused it in America in the late 30's when he was reviled and seen as a Nazi puppet? Even though he had gone to live there in 1928.

 

B, an excellent post on your behalf.:good
In the poll you cite choosing 72% on ESB picking Clay/Ali over the
prime Joe Louis, I most vehemently disagree with their assertion B.
The poll I cited of the 1950s choosing Dempsey as the greatest heavyweight ,was comprised of the top veteran boxing writers who
saw Dempsey fight and knew their onions about boxing...Not a few
ESB posters who have not a clue how great a destroyer the lithe Brown
Bomber was in his heyday. I am convinced that if Ali had the quiet
bland personality of an Ezzard Charles, Ali would not be held in such
high esteem as being the "greatest" heavyweight ever. That honorable
distinction most assurably belongs to the great Joe Louis...Ali, was a great fighter no doubt, but his trait of bouncing around his opponent showing them up without throwing punches, was as much glitz as substance,
whereas the Joe Louis of his peak form ANNIHILATED his foes, and
NEVER GLOATED over his victims who after all were trying to support
their families after all...Louis was my man as a fighter and a role model.
cheers B.

 

Spot on

 

Yes, because it is not the pre 1950 heavies who have supplanted Dempsey in the rankings but those from the 1960's onward.

 

So even with the many hours of excellent film available of Louis, the posters on ESB have no clue, how great a champion he was... but somehow the same posters are such great Zivic experts, that you think we should listen to them, when they claim he would rip Mayweather a new *******! Is that how it works?

 

So now because Joe Louis was " discreet " we are supposed to hold him in higher esteem? After Jack Johnson, and the furore he caused Louis was told NOT to be seen in public with white women. So he wasn't. But was he any better than Ali, who publicly carried on his affairs, and spouted off about his lifestyle and inter racial marriages?

I don't know the answer, and I don't care. I try to judge them on their in ring activities.

 

Who would deny your claim ? Not I. Of course he would be in the very top mix of great heavyweights, BUT his charisma and "showmanship" has a lot to do with his pantheon status, whereas the more subdued personality's
of the LH Ezzard Charles and Joe Louis gave them NO advantage in their
alltime ratings...They earned it the hard way with their dominating the opponents of their era...