Jack Dempsey, we need you now !

B, why the heck does Zivic enter the debate of Louis/Ali ? I cited Fritzie Zivic ,a rough and tough veteran who kod a still great Henry Armstrong to show the enormous regard a TWENTY year old Ray Robinson earned by whipping Fritzie Zivic in his 20th bout in 1941....If you feel that your man Ali beats the Joe Louis circa Max Baer H2H that is your right as a poster, whilst I would wager my last buck that the Joe Louis I revere, catches up to
Clay/ Ali and silences him...

 

That may have contributed to his overall status as a personality who transcended the sport, but IMO, had little to do with the ranking he is accorded by serious students of the game.

Yes Bert, Ali could, at certain times, be somewhat brash.
Every now and then, some have termed him vain and even braggadocious !

However, the point is, he (usually) backed up his audacity and chutzpa in the ring. And this is the reason he is usually seen as being at or near the top of the HW list by the boxing cognoscenti. His verbal output would have counted for little had he not backed it up with his performances.

 

This has got nothing to do with Louis/Ali or Zivic/Mayweather. This is about how you in one case embrace the opinion of ESB posters, because it fits your agenda - and in another case dismiss the same posters, because they must be clueless, if they don't agree with you!

 

Dempsey, the man was born to fight, a natural born killer in the ring. His punches were short, fast and powerful. He was a natural puncher, who would be competative in any era. He routinely feasted upon much larger men.

I would put Dempsey's speed up against any Heavyweight fighter, including Ali. He may not have had the natural grace of an Ali, but his hand and foot speed, in his prime was devastating. To be across the ring, from an unshaven, scowling Dempsey, surely must have been an frightening experience for an opponent.

Of all the sports stars of the 20's, probably none was bigger than Jack Dempsey. How many Heavyweight champions, will be remembered in a 100 years? Only a few...He transcended the sport of boxing. He was an sports icon.

 

What a fighter weighs is a product of his or her natural capacities for growth, his or her habits, and environmental influence and opportunity. It is debatable what a fighter of a past milleiu may weigh today, but it's not fantastical to think that it may differ from what he or she weighed in their own time. I do agree that there is a greater degree of fantasy in speculating as to the powers and operation of a fighter when born into a different era than his or her own. I don't think it's pure fantasy -- the basis is the fighters nature, and that they make use of the opportunities of development of the new era in proportion to how they did in their own time.

 

B, your wrong on your assertion that I EMBRACE the ESB posters who agree with me...Of course I do, but not because they AGREE with me, but
because I have been watching and reading about the great fighters I have seen in over 5 decades and I trust my judgment over other posters on ESB
not because I am smarter than some of them, but I absorb with great
importance the valued opinions of seasoned contemporaries of fighters of the past....B, now your getting personal...What freakin agenda do I have?
If I don't agree with U, does it mean I am not SINCERE in my beliefs ?
I would certainly not ascribe an "agenda" to you sir...Life is too damn
short for this "agenda" baloney to defend myself....

 

WELL said G...There will never be another Dempsey, because hard times
forges hard men and you can take that to the bank....

 

He'd be the only one. :roll:

 

You're right Burt... that "agenda" remark was uncalled for! You're known in these parts as a fair, unbiased poster, who always gives credit where credit is due. So I apologize.

 

Accepted B!
If I tend to favor the "oldtimers" I saw growing up ringside, such as SRR, Pep, Ike Williams, Beau Jack, Saddler, Kid Gavilan, LaMotta, Cerdan, etc it is because there were about 5 times the amount of pro fighters in the 1940s who were forced to fight the very best of such a deep pool of
talented fighters 15-20 times to earn a living ,it stands to reason that the cream of the crop would with few exceptions beat the alphabet champions we have today....But IMO a GGG, a Kovalev and a few others would fit in very nicely in ANY ERA...It takes enormous boxing skills to fight almost 200 bouts as a Ray Robinson and Willie Pep fought and still remain on top...

 

I think people forget just how hard a man Dempsey was. When I think of 'killer instinct' a scowling, unshaven Jack Dempsey comes to mind.

Jack Dempsey, and Joe Louis had to be the shortest punching, hardest hitting Heavyweights of all time. No mere 'plodders' these gentlemen.

Dempsey stalked you on the balls of his feet, cat quick and powerful. Hard to hit cleanly in his prime. The days, that bred men like him are gone.

 

Of course I meant the top 1940s fighters above fought 15-20- times a year
to compete.

 

No, Jack Dempsey at 215lbs would not be the same fighter, but if we had a time machine (and asked the promoters "pretty please"), it would be interesting to hear the opinions of everybody after the 180lbs version had cut down every contender worth mentioning, and to the horror of the anti-mauler brigade there would be enough energy left to bust out with a little Charleston.

 

Funny, I can cite articles where Greb and Wills are mentioned as among his best opponents BEFORE July 4, 1919. So, I guess they were mentioning even then.