Greater Heavyweight? -- JEFFRIES vs JOHNSON

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by guilalah, Jan 24, 2014.


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  1. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

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    WHO DO YOU ESTEEM MORE HIGHLY AS A HEAVYWEIGHT (and, if you wish, 'Why?'):
    JIM JEFFRIES or JACK JOHNSON?

    Interested in opinions and, also, hoping a lot of the argument that crops up on this topic can be centralized in this thread.
     
    guilalah, Jan 24, 2014
    guilalah, Jan 24, 2014
    #1
  2. fists of fury

    fists of fury Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    More like Mendoza vs McVey.
     
    fists of fury, Jan 24, 2014
    fists of fury, Jan 24, 2014
    #2
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    :lol: Christ...

    I think it's close enough that you can argue either way. Sorry.
     
    McGrain, Jan 24, 2014
    McGrain, Jan 24, 2014
    #3
  4. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Jeezzus lads, what are ye at?
     
    mattdonnellon, Jan 24, 2014
    mattdonnellon, Jan 24, 2014
    #4
  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I can honestly say that I have swapped them, swapped them back, then swapped them back again.

    They were two titans of their respective eras, with some drastic differences, and a couple of similarities.

    Jeffries probably did better against world class fighters, earlier in his career, than any other heavyweight champion. He won the title as a novice with about 12 professional fights, and learned to box on the job. He was extremely consistent, retiring in his prime and undefeated, and only really loosing to Johnson.

    Johnson probably had the most difficult early career circumstances of any heavyweight champion. He was literally sleeping rough when he started fighting fringe contenders, and this was key to developing his economical style. He developed late, but enjoyed incredible longevity. It is probably fair to say that he has the deepest resume of any heavyweight champion apart from Louis and Ali.

    Their primes very nearly overlapped, if in fact they didn’t. It is a tragedy that they never fought then. Personality wise they were about as different as you can get. What I wouldn’t give to meet either one of them!
    This content is protected
     
    janitor, Jan 24, 2014
    janitor, Jan 24, 2014
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  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Heads above the parapet time.
    Both great for their time, Johnson the greater.
    No surprise there then.:D
     
    mcvey, Jan 24, 2014
    mcvey, Jan 24, 2014
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  7. mattdonnellon

    mattdonnellon Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    You should have gone with Jeff, that'ed ***** the pitch!
     
    mattdonnellon, Jan 24, 2014
    mattdonnellon, Jan 24, 2014
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  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Although Johnson's level of competition as champion, generally, was hellish. Matt D did the work on that.

    I would disagree, anyway. I think Lennox Lewis bares that honour.
     
    McGrain, Jan 24, 2014
    McGrain, Jan 24, 2014
    #8
  9. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Matt, I would give almost anything to have seen them face off prime for prime, but I honestly think Johnson would have beaten the man who is probably the most precocious of the heavyweight champions.
    Jeffries was beating world class men when still a relative novice, I do not underestimate him.

    Styles make fights, and I think Johnson is more suited to prevail here than Jeffries.

    Both reigns are flawed.
    Jeffries for not defending against the best of the coloured challengers.Denver Ed Martin.
    Jack Johnson and Sam McVey.
    Johnson for not rematching his standout challenger in the latter part of his title tenure Sam Langford.

    Perhaps both pandered to the public's desire?
     
    mcvey, Jan 24, 2014
    mcvey, Jan 24, 2014
    #9
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Its ok ,the Highlands are miles away from me.:lol:
     
    mcvey, Jan 24, 2014
    mcvey, Jan 24, 2014
    #10
  11. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    The only thing for certain was who was better in 1910 … other than that we have no way to know … to me, even if Marvin Hart was fairly outpointed by a prime JOhnson he went the distance, slugging every step of the way and was unbowed. How the 1902 Jeffries does where Hart left off has been a huge question mark for me in analyzing this match up …
     
    he grant, Jan 25, 2014
    he grant, Jan 25, 2014
    #11
  12. Meazy-E

    Meazy-E Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Jeffries seemed like a great athlete, but his boxing looked abysmal. Based on what I have seen he is not great.
     
    Meazy-E, Jan 25, 2014
    Meazy-E, Jan 25, 2014
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  13. Seamus

    Seamus Proud Kulak Full Member

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    No, it's not probably not fair.

    I would rank the competition of Lewis, Holyfield and Tyson higher…. maybe Holmes, too.
     
    Seamus, Jan 25, 2014
    Seamus, Jan 25, 2014
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  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I am not saying that his opposition was better than theirs, just that he beat more world class fighters in terms of numbers.

    Is that fair?
     
    janitor, Jan 25, 2014
    janitor, Jan 25, 2014
    #14
  15. guilalah

    guilalah Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I haven't voted yet. I've tended to favor Jeffries a bit over the years, but I think there's arguments either way.

    I'm very impressed that Jeffries with a bum left got past a peaking Tom Sharkey, overcame what was regarded as a great effort by Corbett despite some rather perverse corner work from Ryan, and overcame Fitzsimmons in what was regarded as an amazing performance by Bob; and he did this before what many observers felt to be his full maturation as a fighter. I think it would be no easy matter for any heavyweight to have come along in Jeffries day and prevailed against that crew.


    On the other hand, Johnson went longer against good competition, without being decisively defeated, than about any other heavyweight I can think of. Also, I feel that Jeffries fought in an era that near perfect matched with and emphasized his assets; and I wonder if Johnson -- likely quicker, cleverer and more skilled -- may have translated better into other eras. And while Johnson's reign is a bit disappointing, I've come to realize that, 1904-1907, no heavyweight around was as willing and eager to meat all comers than Jack Johnson.


    One difference between Jeffries and Johnson is that Johnson tended to make people look inept, while one could look very good against Jeffries yet still come up with the short stick.

    Johnson had a bit of something for everyone. Jeffries was seen as a fighter no one could put away and no one could endure over 20-25 rounds. (I agree with Jeffries that Sharkey, undoubtedly tough and game, yet never met Jeffries at Jim's best).
     
    guilalah, Jan 25, 2014
    guilalah, Jan 25, 2014
    #15
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