I bought a DVD yesterday called "Top Ten Heavyweights". Bert Sugar rated Holmes number 10 in his list. Sugar didn't cross eras, he went on the achievements, ability and historical impact of fighters, etc. So he wouldn't match Louis ans Ali, for example. His list was: 1. Louis 2.Ali 3. Dempsey 4. Johnson 5. Tunney 6. Marciano 7. Charles 8. Foreman 9.Frazier 10. Holmes Where do you place Holmes and what do you think of the list?
I don't think he based it on inches, Seamus. If he did, Sonny Liston would be number one according to a book I read about him!
Larry Holmes defended the title 20 times which is more than Dempsey, Charles, & Frazier combined. Dempsey declared he would never fight a black man. Holmes never had the luxury of side stepping competition. Therefore, he should rank above at least some of those listed.
That's where I see him as well. You could make a case for prime Homes, give ANY of the greats a real tough go ... Without question the best jab in the business !
Unless your Ipayforleavingnot I would expect most Eastsiders have Holmes in their top 5 and the rest in the next 5 down. As with several of you I have him at the #5. Survey results of boxing scribes and trainers in the past mirror Holmes placing strongly in the top 10.
My former trainer was stablemates with Charles in the 40's and rated him up there also as a heavy but you two are a rarity. I can't see him matching say Holyfield or Lewis at that weight.
I have Holmes floating around #3 to #9 heavyweight. Ali and Louis #1 and #2, then a mix of Sullivan, Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, (sometimes) Tunney, Marciano, and Holmes. If you asked me right at this moment I'd say '#8', but I may have him '#3' next week.
I believe Holmes had a lot of talent but unfortunately did not fight the best men of his era and never rematched a tough fight or unified the title...there were opportunities to fight Tate,Dokes,Weaver,Coetzee,Page,Thomas to unify and he did not, also Williams,Witherspoon and Weaver were tough fights that he did not rematch A lot of Larry's title opponents had 10 fights 10-2-2, 13 fights, 14-0-1, 14-1, 19-8, 15-16 fights so his title record was padded and he was protected by the split title For avoidance's he ducked more black fighters than Dempsey and never unified I still think Holmes was the best of his era but that would be speculation because his best wins were Cooney (who never went past 8 rounds ) and Shavers who had already lost to many...M.Spinks was a step up but he lost that one and Tyson Ko'd Holmes but he was already past his best but still lively I still put Holmes in the lower half of the top 10
You make a good point about Larry's title opponents having few bouts, and while he holds the record as heavy champ for most defenses against undefeated contenders (8 as number 9 against Marvis was non-title) four of them had under 17 bouts. Then again Jeffries only had 15 bouts going into his title win against Corbett. I can't hold the Spinks loss against him as he was already past it in his win over Williams but like you said he still makes the top ten.