If Johnson and Jeffries had fought close to their primes...

Johnson would stay where he is for me. Jeffries would certainly enter the top ten which at the moment he misses.

 

Agreed, I've never really been impressed by anything I've seen of jeffries, though most of what I seen may have been him reacting to the situation and trying to finish the fight, Jack beating him in his prime really doesn't do much for his legacy.

 

I think that either of them upon winning as you outline, would join Joe Louis and Muhamad Ali as part of a trio set apart from the rest of the top ten.

 

I haven't done a top ten rating and thought about it in depth lately, but I would rate Johnson outside the top five, probably about seventh or eighth. With this win he would move up into the top five for certain.

Jeffries--He would barely make my top ten today, if at all, somewhere around tenth to thirteen or so. A win over Johnson, if Johnson went on to become champion and held it for years, as he did, Jeffries would also jump into the top five. I think top three would be at least reasonable. I think a win over Johnson would probably have meant a bit more to Jeff's standing than a win over a young Jeffries would have meant to Johnson.

 

The winner would be solid #3, maybe #2 depending what I saw on films.

As to the looser, it would all depend on how competitive they were.

 

Perhaps if Johnson beat Hart, and there was a huge Reno like purse, Jefffries takes the fight, and finishes Johnson. What fighters says and what they do when a big purse opens up for them are often different. A while back there was a thread on Jeffries next defense post Munore, and he mentions Johnson.

Or perhaps had Johnson accepted Jeffries fight in the bar, took his lumps and spread false rumors about what really happened ( Like Munroe did ), Jeffries might have fought him as he hated when the press didn't tell the truth.


If Jeffries beat Johnson in 1905 ( Most feel he would have ) and retired un-defeated, he's ranked higher than where Johnson is today my most, which is in the top 3-10. You could say Jeffries would have three wins over lineal title holders. Fitz, Corbett and Johnson. That would be tough to match.

If Johnson had beaten a prime Jeffries, those who feel he's over rated due to upsets, draws, losses to smaller men, and a very lousy title run would have to give him his due.

I think the winner here moves way up. Just like Foreman did over Frazier.

 

Jeffries ,when champion would never fight Johnson and he many times unequivocally stated it in print. His reason was that he would ,"not take the chance of losing his title to a negro".

Everbody knows this is a concrete fact, set in stone, those that have read extensively about him and those that have written biographies on him.
Everybody but you.

When Johnson's outstanding record was brought up Jeffries said ,"I dont care if he beats the whole Japanese Army I won't fight him".
Jeffries continually referred to Johnson as a skunk and a c**n.
There is no record of Johnson ever referring to Jeffries in a similar fashion.
Jeffries refused to shake Johnsons hand or to speak to him whenever they met. He would not shake Johnson's hand at the signing of the fight ,nor when they met in the ring.
Johnson and Munroe had challenges read out at the second Jeffries/Corbett fight . Johnson's was cheered by the crowd ,Munroe's booed.

After beating the shot Corbett. Jeffries made a statement to the crowd.
" I have always been ready to defend my ttile against any man in the world, I bar Negroes however,If Jack Munroe wants to fight me I am ready to make some easy money."

PRIMARY SOURCE PROVIDED BELOW.

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066387/1903-08-15/ed-1/seq-2/


Jeffries fought Munroe, and in his own words "lost money on the deal". Jeffries said he would go down in the cellar and fight Johnson when Johnson asked him for a title fight ,Johnson refused saying," I aint no cellar fighter".Jeffries later recorded that he was ashamed of this act.

 

I could show you 100 quotes of fighters who said one thing, and did another. In prize fighting, MONEY talks. You know Jeffries did in fact mention Johnson as a possible title opponent post Munore. It is fact. If he had no intention of ever meeting Johnson, he would not mention his name.

Like I said Johnson turned yellow when Jeffries offered him a fight in a bar. If he had beaten Hart, perhaps the purse for Jeffries vs Johnson in 1905 could have lured Jeffries, who lost money int the Munroe fight into the ring.

As lineal champion, Jeffries beat on Hank Griffin so its plausible he would fight another black man.

 

Prizefighting was not an easy event to stage during Jeffries time. It was illegal in some areas, arenas often had to be constructed in short order to host the event, and sometimes the money was tough guarantee.

Jeffries retired early partially because ht money dried up. By 1905 Marvin Hart was the #1 guy. Jeffries said he would fight him if there was demand for it. There was not. I have read newspapers that say Jeffries had 20 Knockouts prior to facing Fitzsimmons! Best guess is he had at least 10 professional fights that were not in news print, or forgotten about. His record like many old timers is incomplete.

If we are talking legacy, its what a fighter meant to boxing in his time. From a legacy standpoint, Jeffries to boxing to another level by staying active as champion, and cleaning out the division more so than those before or after him.

Jeffires floored every man he meet, save his 1910 come back attempt. He also hold the quickest KO win in the history of lineal title. Fighters like Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Bruns, Johnson, Langford and Dempsey felt Jeffries was the best. Most historians felt the same, up to around 1970 when they passed.

If we are talking head to head, most old timers are simply too small to compete with modern heavyweights. This is where Jeffries stands alone among boxers per Sonny Liston as he was big and athletic. Today he would be 230 pounds in shape, and likely even stronger.

 

Even if we were to give this story full credit, how the hell would Johnson be 'yellow' to turn down such a f***ing insulting and unprofessional offer? :bart
I hope the story is just hoo-ha , as it would be to Jeffries discredit. :nono

 

I wont spend much time on this it because it doesn't merit it.

Jeffries made a public statement BEFORE the Johnson v Hart fight.
Asked is he would defend his title against Johnson ,should he win he replied.
"No I am not fighting skunks as yet, not while there are whitemen in the field.

I'm not going to discuss Johnson's abilities as a boxer.
He may be a wonder and all that, but if anyone is to take my ttile I want that man to be of my own colour.

If Hart wins I will cheerfully give him a fight.I suppose it will be up to me to do so.
He's a young fellow,and they say he has a physique too.I hope he will draw,though,for I am not going to be drawn into another Jack Munroe farce.
That affair did not yield me a penny.In fact I lost money on it,and I don't 'like the idea of fighting for the love of it."

Primary source below.
The Oakland Tribune March 27th 1905.

Jeffries refuses to give Johnson a title shot , but it is Johnson who is yellow?:huh

That just about sums you up.

 

Johnson named Fitzsimmons as the best NOT Jeffries.

Langford named Dempsey as the best NOT Jeffries.

I hardly think Corbett and Burns would give an objective opinion of Johnson's capabilities. Though Corbett did say that Johnson was the finest defensive boxer of them all , an opinion with which Tom Sharkey concurred.

Most historians did NOT feel the same ,more picked Johnson over Jeffries that the other way around.

Nat Fleischer
1.Johnson
2.Jeffries

Charley Rose
2.Johnson
6.Jeffries

John Durant
2.Johnson
7.Jeffries

World Boxing Poll
4.Johnson
8. Jeffries

Bill Brennan President of WBA
4.Johnson
6.Jeffries

Bert Sugar
4.Johnson
0Jeffries

SI has Johnson at no 5 .Jeffries is unrated
The premise that it is only as the older writers died that Jeffries name faded, does not hold up because Johnson's stock has never gone down, and not only did their careers closely overlap , there was only 2 years in age between them.

In addition Terry Leigh Lye,Gilbert Odd,Denzil Batchelor,Gerald Suster,Harry Carpenter , Reg Gutteridge,Eddie Futch,Ray Arcel,Herbert Goldman,Steve Farhood,Nigel Collins .etc all rated Johnson over Jeffries.


Please produce all these historians names that rated Jeffries over Johnson.