Where do you rank Holmes?

I agree wholeheartedly until your last paragraph and a half or so.

Whom do you suppose he owed but did not give a rematch?

Over whom do you think he got a gift? (if you were actually implying that he got any, which is unclear...)

As for Tyson and Frazier, it may well be that Tyson vs. Holmes would have been a less brutal version of the same result if you matched them prime for prime in a time machine (the same way some feel that Holmes vs. Clay might've still been a decision for Larry, but much tighter; both perhaps being cases where the discrepancy in age while still a factor in exactly how things played out belies the victor just having the # of his elder stylistically regardless of where in their careers they met...) - but there are many cases where one ATG has the proven # of another who is justly rated higher. Holmes was also in his younger days, from even before turning pro, a sparring partner of Frazier's. He was, AFAIK, considered among the most useful sparring partners Joe ever had as he pushed him to his limits (much as he did with Ali) coming on strong in one session even after Joe broke his rib...and sparring him again the next day, on even terms, when he should've been healing at home.

That, mind you, was prime Frazier and still a very green Holmes yet to even discover and hone the jab as his best weapon.

Of course, yes, it was only sparring, but it's all we have to go on besides general form and common opposition to inform a hypothetical match-up between them...and food indeed for thought.

 

To be fair to Larry those rival champs kept blowing their titles in their first defence and they all wound up either losing to Holmes or a victim of his. To make a showdown they had to beat more than just one contender. Often those guys only decent win was winning a belt they lost in their next fight. Where as Holmes at least established himself..... but it was a slow burning recognition he achieved. He got there in the end. Lennox also "got there in the end". Nobody said Ali, Louis or Dempsey "got there in the end". They were always considered the best heavyweight whilst champions. That's why I put them ahead of Larry.

 

I rank Holmes number 3, I feel he had the boxing the skill as well as character in his prime to possibly beat any heavyweight who has ever lived. His 20 defenses is extremely impressive feat even though he wasn't fighting the best opposition he fought mostly all the top contenders and didn't duck any of them as far as I know. Fights with Thomas, Coetzee, Tate, Tubbs and Page could've further built his legacy as I feel he would've beat each one of them but for some reason they never took place. Holmes in his prime was just flat out a winner much like Ali, certain fighters may give him more trouble then they'd give other greats but he'd always find a way to come out on top and I feel this would've been the result had he met pretty well any great fighter in his prime. Even after his prime he showed the ability to hold his own and win against some of the better fighters in the world. Truly a great fighter who had many great battles and who will never get the credit from some that he deserves.

 

Yeah, discrediting certain opponents as not deserving a shot at Holmes doesn't really cut it when you actually look at some of the opposition Holmes did defend his title against.

 

:good

His championship resume cannot be called 'perfect' when aggressively criticized, but our cup hardly runneth over with All Time Greats whose resumes can.

 

In the examples it's about where the fighters were at. Ali already had P.D. symptoms and was on thyroid medication when he fought Holmes so Holmes wouldn't have had Ali's number before Ali's decline. As for the Holmes that fought Tyson, he was undertrained and unmotivated (except for money), and out of boxing for some time. This doesn't mean Tyson would have had the number of a 1980 version of Holmes.

 

Lewis never blatantly ducked fighters the way Holmes did. Lennox took on good guys WHEN THEY WERE HOT (Or at least when they were believed to have been hot) e.g, Andrew Golota, Michael Grant, David Tua, etc. The only guy Lewis didn't fight was Chris Byrd, and that was not a fight people were clamoring to see, as most felt Byrd had no chance. As for George Foreman, when was Foreman ever a viable opponent for Lewis??? How can you fault Lewis for not fighting Foreman? Foreman never earned a shot at Lewis. But when George was champ in '95, Lewis was around, but George didn't fight him. The ever-so-dangerous Axel Schultz got the invitation instead of real threats like Lewis and Bowe.
And Michael Moorer -- Emanuel Steward said he never wanted Moorer to fight Lewis; he felt Lewis was too dangerous and the wrong style for Michael; that's why Moorer fought Foreman instead.

Larry Holmes blatantly ducked Greg Page -- that's indisputable. And if Witherspoon and Williams could push Holmes to the brink, why couldn't a motivated Page?

 

A motivated page came around about as often as Santa Claus..
Larry may have given up the belt rather than fight page but it was not out of fear. Berbick already beat Page and Holmes already beat Berbick. Greg was no longer hot, there was more money against Marvis Frazier than a fight with page so he took Marvis. Why not? He had dealt with Cooney, Ali, Weaver, Spinks, and Shavers by then. Holmes was a busy champ. He beat Weaver who beat Tate and Coetzee. That's two fights that could never be as big as the Gerry Cooney, Leon Spinks, Enie Shavers and Muhammad Ali type show downs. Dokes? Who did he ever beat? Had Thomas managed to string a defence or two together one could argue he should have fought Holmes but he wound up losing to Berbick too. Holmes was a solid champ it's just his best contenders passed belts around. It took him a long time to get recognition that's all. Nobody got the better of him at his best. You cant say that about Lewis, Bowe Holyfeild, or Tyson.

 

I have him in my top 5. Holmes was a proudful man and a fierce competitor. His jab in his prime could control an opponent like few other Heavyweight champions can claim. I remember him beating Shavers up, with basically just his jab in there first fight. As mentioned above, in his prime nobody got the best of him. Came back as an old man, and made Ray Mercer look like a rank amateur, went the distance with prime Holyfield.

 

I think his list is dead on!

 

Tunney and Johnson top five? Holmes tenth?

Bert had something besides tobacco in those stogies, methinks...

 

That list is ****ing horrible.

 

I have Holmes at 7 due to 3 main things:

#1 - Going 0-2 against Spinksy.
#2 - Getting destroyed by Tyson.
#3 - Not unifying/defending against better opposition (Page/Tubbs/etc.) that was available.

If Holmesy beat Spinks and defended against a couple of the better HWs I would probably have him up a couple/few spots.

1) Louis
2) Ali
3) Marciano
4) Lewis
5) Johnson
6) Dempsey
7) Holmes
8) Foreman
9) Tyson
10) Frazier

 

How so??atsch

 

That would be the only thing I would change!! Take Tunney off the list completely and put Johnson dead last since for some reason he just HAS to be on the list. Replace Tunney with maybe Lewis or Holyfield!:yep