Sam Langford discusses his Jack Johnson fight and ducking

Ive got to say, I get tired of these arguments in regards to SOME black fighters whereby the thesis is "he was never given the opportunities..." Just what opportunities should Tate have gotten? The opportunity to get hjghly publicized by acting as the chief sparring partner for years for Dempsey? Check? The opportunity to prove to be one of the best black fighters of his era by fighting guys like Langford, Wills, Jeanette, etc. Check. The opportunity to prove you are a viable contender by facing highly ranked white fighters like Gunboat Smith, check. Why should ANY fighter be GIVEN opportunities? You TAKE your opportunities in the ring and Tate could do that only half the time and not always against the best opposition. The fact is that Tate was a sparring partner level fighter and nothing more. He was a journeyman, meaning he knew his craft but never excelled at it. He was never better than a half dozen or more talented black heavyweights or a half dozen or more talented white heavyweights. His record says it all, he has a 50/50 win, loss, draw record. Trying to build him up as something more than he is to support your argument is pretty weak. Particularly in light of the footage we have him, the most telling being him completely timid and snowed under by the nearly 1 foot shorter and 53 pounds lighter Kid Norfolk. As pointed out above, his success against Langford (which was limited) came after Langford was past his expiration date.

 

USA!
USA!
USA!

Somebody is actually friends with guy and admits it? Pretty cool for Joe J

 

Look I'll try just once more.
Langford was Johnson's standout challenger.Head and shoulders above the others figuratively if not literally.Tate was a C level sparring partner. Langford improved after his fight with Johnson as he gained weight and strength, Clay Moyle estimates his optimum weight to be around 175lbs that would give him an increase of 19lbs over his estimated weight in 1906 ,when he fought Johnson . Similarly Johnson improved as he too gained weight and strength.he was about 185/7lbs against Langford in 1906 , he was at his best ,in his opinion .against Jeffries, he was then 208lbs that is an increase of 23lbs. Factor in that when they did fight Langford had more ring experience. If they had fought when Johnson was champion he would have the confidence of that to add to his added ring rounds and weight.

I've explained Jeannette's stance on Jack Johnson,and there are many verified quotes to support it. Wills was a sparring partner for Johnson briefly but was sacked because he could not stand the pace ,so another less than objective opinion.

Now digest that and stop with the silly insults you are only mugging yourself. In case you haven't noticed people are laughing at you.

 

Where do they come from?atsch

 

First,you starting insulting me with "go research" and having an overall condescending tone,not me. What people laughing? The voices in your head? If people are mocking me (in secret code) **** the cowards.Again,i will say it,tate was not great(i shared some one's else thoughts who felt he was above average)that were not mine, but(i feel)his huge size(recently,like valuev) would have been a great advantage over a much smaller man,unless of course very skilled and strong,as sam was.my observation was not meant to grade tate but show sam's greatness...do you finally get what i am saying? It is pretty simple.based upon on moyle's observation's you are implying that johnson improved at a similar rate as sam's correct? Then,this would prove a similiar outcome as in their first meeting? Maybe, we cannot know just guess correct? Let me add this to my reasoning.johnson said a fight between two colored fighters wouldn't draw flies,less prize money.fair enough,then why did he choose battling jim johnson(or to start fighting "colored" fighters ) instead of the highly touted langford? You know the people's,sportswriters choice? The one he easily beat and was certain of his own dominance? The one who had been endlessly begging for a rematch? By the way, i read sam's best weight was closer to just over 180lb(like marciano) the main thing (in my humble opinion) in their rematch would be conditioning and if sam can get and work inside and johnson jabbing and moving more.they both were courageous,possessed good chins, were super strong,hard punching and clever. I think the fact sam desperately wanted the fight(fact) and johnson didn't(fact), says it all.to all the haters(**** off)!

 

There is film of Tate fighting Kid Norfolk, a fighter not dissimilar in stature to Langford, he looks decidedly average.
Beating him did nothing to enhance Langford's reputation .

Your thesis is fundamentally flawed because it states Langford was the people's choice, he wasn't, the peoples choice was any big man who was white .


Why on earth do you think the White Hope Era started in the first place?

It was not just Johnson who said two blacks don't draw ,both leading promoters Barney Curley, and Jim Coffroth stated it publicly .

I understood your stance immediately I just didn't agree with it, as I said if you had dug for more information you would have not have quoted that ridiculous little book purporting to be Jack Johnson 's biography ,originally entitled Mes Combats, it is an oft translated and re- translated mish mash of inaccuracies and bull **** that has absolutely no credibility among anyone who has any pretensions to a semi-serious study of its subject.
It is patently obvious Langfrod improved after 1906 it is equally obvious so did Johnson no attempt has been made by me to quantify how much improvement each man made.
You started your input in this thread with the opening line

"Sam fought jack johnson when he was comparatively green and gave him fits".

Everybody on here knows that is bull****,everybody but you.

Langford was the more experienced fighter, and was totally outclassed by Johnson as several ringside reports,[readily available for those who can be bothered to look for them,] show .


Here is a ringside report of their fight.

http://senya13.blogspot.co.uk/2011/04/1906-04-26-jack-johnson-w-pts15-sam.html


No" fits" provided by Mr Langford there.

Now you've learned something from my "condescension " haven't you?

The natural response to your absurd statement was to say," go and do some research," I made it , and I reiterate it now.

Johnson chose to fight Battling Jim Johnson because ;

1.He thought he would give him a useful workout before tackling Frank Moran with whom he had already formed a verbal agreement for a defence.
2.At 35 and fat,having not fought in a year and a half, Johnson did not want too threatening a challenger.
3.Battling Jim was in France at the same time as Johnson.He was touring Europe and his last 4 fights had either been in France or the UK.

I'll go by Clay Moyle's assessment of Langford's optimum weight where did you get your info?

You finished your post with the words f**k off ,very mature, no wonder you are the butt of jokes.

Why do you think posters beleive you are the ****** Jennette, and type "USA" in response to your posts?

Those that resort quickly to insults do so because they have neither the vocabulary nor the wit to compete on even terms with others.

 

^^^this.

 

As I've pointed out and provided proof for, there is no "probably", Johnson gave Langford a good beating.If Jim Johnson was a mediocrity how come he beat Jeannette twice and drew with him twice?
If he was a mediocrity, how come he drew with Langford twice?
How come he drew with McVey kod Arthur Pelkey and drew with and kod Jeff Clark?
If he was a mediocritiy how good were they?

I know you won't answer,I'm just highlighting how ridiculous you are .:happy

 

If you cared for your reputation as a historian, you would be quiet on this topic. Battling Jim's record is very spotty. You are what your records says you are. In Battling Jim's case he was big and durable, which was enough to give name veterans on the decline of their career a tough time.

If Johnson cared about the dubious draw, he gives a re-match. That did not happen in either of his draws / news decision draws as champion!

Back to point, there are numerous offers out there in the press for Johnson to meet Jeannette. Here are just a few

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50F11FA3D5417738DDDAE0994D0405B828DF1D3

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F60F1FF8355E13738DDDAA0A94D9405B838DF1D3

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F40E15FA3D5417738DDDAA0994D0405B828DF1D3

 

I'm not a historian you fool, I'm just a boxing fan, as to my reputation I'm only concerned with the opinions of those I respect." Big enough to give name veterans on the decline of their career,[ in decline surely]?a tough time." Langford was 29 btw Johnson was just 19 when he drew with McVey , Mcvey was 26. Did either Jeannette,Langford or McVey have broken arms when they drew with Jim Johnson?

Oh here is the Langford quote where he states Dempsey is the greatest fighter he ever saw NOT Jeffries.

"Sam Langford, when asked how Harry Wills (whom he fought 18 times in his career) would do against Jack Dempsey, said in the June 5, 1922, Atlanta Constitution "Well if he ever fights Dempsey my money will be on the present champion. Dempsey is the greatest fighter I have ever seen. He hits twice as hard as Jim Jeffries and is as fast in the ring as James J. Corbett."

 

Didn't Langford beat Jim Johnson a fair few times?

And you keep on pointing out over and over how Jack Johnson gave Sam a good beating, but the link that you provided me in another thread today features various newspaper reports from the fight that all state Langford was at least 35 pounds lighter than Jack.

Do you no think that had a significant impact on the outcome of the fight?

 

Yes he did. You asked me for a genuine primary source that gives the real account of the Johnson v Langford fight I gave you one. Johnson was probably about 185/7 lbs Langford around`156/160 according to Pollack .We know Johnson was not scaling in the 190s' in 1906 35 lbs disparity is an exaggeration. Yes I think Johnson was too big and strong for him and ,as he gained another 30lbs in muscle himself plus more experience.I think that, if he was fit, that would always be the case. You may well disagree, its your prerogative. keep in mind Langford gave weight and a beating to Wills a couple of times, he just couldn't do it to Johnson in 1906.

 

usa?

 

Priceless:good