All Black Heavyweight Title Fight in Aussie Falls Through

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by mcvey, Feb 11, 2014.


  1. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    This article states that Hugh d McIntosh planned a series of eliminating round robin's between champion Jack Johnson and his black challengers in Australia,The plan never got off the ground because the first defence ,[Johnson v Sam McVey,] was abandoned because of lack of finance. If true this directly contradicts the premise that there were genuine big money offers for Johnson to defend against his black challengers in Aussie.

    Any comments ?



    "McVea had arrived in Australia in August of 1911, along with fellow African-American boxers Jack Johnson, the current world's heavyweight champion (which he had won in Australia two years earlier), and Sam Langford, the current "colored" heavyweight champion. The party had been assembled by promoter and manager D. McIntish, who's plan consisted of a seasonal tour of the country before finishing up with first a Johnson title defense against McVea, to be followed by a match between the winner and Sam Langford. "





    "Unfortunately, for McVea, audiences weren't that enthusiastic to pay to see two African-Americans fight for the title. Unable to draw a large enough crowd to cover the promised purses - £18,000 a fight for Johnson, £6,000 for McVea, and £1,000 for Langford, in addition to their percentages - the fight was abandoned. Instead, Johnson returned to the States to meet another "white hope", the role being filled this time by Fireman Jim Flynn."


    "As McVea and Langford watched their opportunity to meet Johnson, and the money that came with it, pass from within their grasps, they tried to make the best of their situation. They booked a series of matches against each other in Sydney, Brisbane, and Perth for the "colored" heavyweight championship, now held by Langford. While McVea won the first fight on December 26,1911, reclaiming the title, the next year he lost four straight to the "Boston Tar Baby". Their final contest on March 24,1913 ended in a draw, but the damage to McVea's drawing power was done. While Langford could thereafter tour Australia screening and narrating the film of his victories"
     
  2. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    I don't think the part about Johnson being there in person can be accurate - in August 1911 he was in London.

    As I understand it, later that year McIntosh did persuade Johnson to go to Australia and fight McVey after McVey's win against Langford, but was then outbid by Jack Curley's offer for a fight with Jim Flynn (both easier and closer to home). After beating Flynn, Johnson agreed to go to Australia and fight both Langford and either McVey or Jeannette - but then McIntosh pulled out claiming that Johnson's "abduction" of Lucille Cameron had turned the Australian public against him and that the fights wouldn't draw.

    http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn86081854/1912-11-01/ed-1/seq-6/
     
  3. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    The time scale may indeed be wrong as is the contention that Johnson had won the title 2 years earlier in fact it was 1908.
    As we know, McVey was in Austalia from1 911 until 1914 .

    Johnson as you say was in the UK for 1911.
    I'm more interested in the premise that the promoter could not garner sufficient interest to make an all black title fight worth while.
     
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Basically, the scale of the financing was the issue. So McIntosh had to put out $60,000 for Johnson alone.

    A second tournament, planned for just McVey, Langford, Jennette and possibly one other fighter also fell through. This tournament was designed to identify a replacement for Johnson.
     
  5. SolomonDeedes

    SolomonDeedes Active Member Full Member

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    My point is despite his grand plans for a heavyweight tourney I don't think McIntosh's ability to cover Johnson's guarantee was ever put to the test because it wasn't till the end of 1911 that Johnson accepted his offer to travel to Australia and meet McVey. The article suggests that Johnson was in Australia but went home when his $18,000 per fight didn't materialise, which can't be right.

    I know Johnson himself said that a defence against one of his black challengers would have to be abroad because a black vs black title fight wouldn't draw in the States.
     
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well whether or not it would have drawn isn't the point. The Garden AC kicked up a 25k offer plus benefits and Johnson signed.

    I don't think it could be argued that McIntosh couldn't afford the 100k (approx) that it would cost him to pay fighters for this grand scheme doesn't mean he couldn't cover the 30k he repeatedly offered Johnson to meet one of his top contenders.

    To say nothing of the French offer.
     
  7. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Do you happen to know the promoter concerned at the Garden?
     
  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Why would a replacement be needed in 1911 ,if it was one of that line up he would also be black so the status quo would remain,who would financially benefit from that?
     
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah - I have a name but not to hand. Driving me a bit mad actually? It was two brothers, sounded a bit like McIntock funnily enough but - I can't remember right now. It was for Garden AC though.
     
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well the promoter would financially benefit from it if he turned a profit on the fight? But I don't actually think that for other countries, and even for some Americans, it was all about beating the black guy. The HW title still held enormous cache, and the black dynamite were a hit in France. And Australia I suppose. Some sporting men just wanted to put on a HW title fight because it was a HW title fight.


    By that stage though, any fighter that wasn't Johnson would have been welcomed to the title.
     
  11. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Whether it would have drawn is entirely the point ,that's why I made the thread in the first place to ascertain if an all black title fight was financially viable. Not whether it was morally justified or deserved.
     
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No, it doesn't matter if it's financially viable if there was money there to MAKE the fight. I mean, maybe it does for your thread, but not in the real world.

    If, say, McIntosh, or the French promoter wanted to put up the 30K that Johnson demanded knowing it would make two dollars, then the MONEY was still there for the fight to be made.

    Whether or not is was "financially viable" for a given promoter is irrelevant if they were willing to put it on regardless of financial viability. But still an interesting question for its own sake.
     
  13. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    I'm just trying to get to the bottom of these big money offers that I see airily put out on here, nothing more.
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The problem is, you never know if they can be paid until Johnson signs, the authority ok's it and they turn up and fight. And that never happened. My guess is that the 25k offer from the Garden was almost definitely dead gen.

    France and Australia, there's really no reason to doubt them apart from that there is always doubt.

    So I guess i'd make that three concrete (or close to it) offers for Jennette to fight Johnson. Shame it never came off, would have given one of them an enormous boost.
     
  15. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Was it the McMahon brothers?
    Here is a link to a Johnson title defence against Jeannette ,signed & sealed for 1912 called off due to outside pressures.


    http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=...s=39&e=-------en--50--1--txt-IN-joe+jeannette
    Here is one that states Johnson is due to sign to fight Langford for£6000.
    http://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=...s=39&e=-------en--50--1--txt-IN-joe+jeannette

    July 1914