Chuvalo In The Late 1890's/Early1900's How Far Could He Go?

Yes, although Jeffries and everybody else from that period is just as "primitive" stylistically.

Let's not get into this again, shall we? I've already complained to mcvey about attacking both fighters' records, and you're doing the same thing.

 

Sigh.

Anyway...I take it that after reading the first part of my post, you at least realize that I wasn't making up what you said re: Jeffries/Ruhlin?

 

You're right. It's hard to see on the film whether there was a right hand or not. But I'm sure that Johnson could follow his left with a right hand, since that was the most common combination from the 1880s onward.

In any case, Johnson moves pretty well in this footage, but I think the way he throws his not-really-a-jab has something to do with it. He doesn't seem to have a lot of hip rotation behind it, among other things. Turning is a little easier without the leverage. The punch is more like an abbreviated, poking version of his lead left, without the skip-stumble. Extemporized to taunt Flynn. (Who displays little head movement).

...Which is NOT to say that Johnson was unskilled. Far from it.

He was a master of his game, just as Joe Louis was. But I think that it was a different game, and that Johnson's just making variations up for fun here.

I assume by "putting a bit of a donk on" that you mean basically what I was saying above -- it's ad-libbed taunting by a brilliant fighter who didn't usually fight that way. Yes?

I'd say the footage supports the idea that Johnson was a virtuoso. Absolutely.

But to stretch the metaphor a little further, Jack Johnson was Mozart, not the Beatles. His variations might occasionally amble into territory that sounds vaguely Beatles-esque, but that's the extent of it.

 

Oh. Sorry. I used this as a reference, which seemed to fit the context:

 

I believe you can see a lot more jabbing by Johnson against Ketchel.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that Johnson was a better, more versatile fighter than Chuvalo and that he would beat him. No doubt whatsoever. I dont think Chuvalo was any better than Frank Moran and an old fat Johnson beat Moran.

 

You nailed it. To save you some time Cross_trainer, McVey doesn't seem to watch many films, he just comments on them often with his eyes wide shut, relying on some books and historical quotes.

The interesting thing is he'll play double standards or when over matched inject other names into the conversation in a lame attempt to deflect from the valid points one can make.

 

The Ketchel footage also shows the sort of things I'm talking about pretty well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9z-NsdvXAU

For instance, with the left lead that ends at about 0:58-ish, Johnson pulls back his left after numerous feints, and then launches himself at Ketchel. He overcommits and drags his rear leg too far forward by modern standards. It's almost exactly like an abbreviated fencing lunge and only vaguely like a modern jab. The feint -- pull back hand -- lunge -- allow rear leg to go way too far forward pattern is particularly pronounced in the sequence that ends at 2:30.

What he's doing is throwing a very Jack-Johnsonized version of the standard left lead that you see from Corbett et al. It's actually got more oomph to it than Corbett's, probably because Johnson was VERY comfortable ending up in a clinch.

It's Ruiz's jab and grab done with vastly more skill. Marvelous to watch, really.

 

WOW, Moran was only a better than average " white hope " contender of the time. Chavalo is better than that.

As to Johnson vs Chuvalo, it depends on the rounds, and ring size. In my mind there is doubt in this match. Its far from a slam dunk for Johnson.

Remember Hart out worked Johnson. Johnson didn't like body shots, and Chavalo had a decent body attack. Johnson would not be able to just hug and mug Chavalo like he did to a 5'9" Flynn or Ketchel.

 

This is not entirely true. Joe Gans had a modern skill set. Watch his matches with Herman or Battling Nelson. Corbett did some fine boxing vs Fitzsimmons, and looks great in sparring sessions vs McCoy, and much later vs Tunney.

As for a primitive style, it works just fine for sluggers. Power, stamina, and durability translate into any era.