The "All Things Mayweather/Pacquiao" Express!!!!!!

Do you put Floyd in the Top 100?

Top 200?

Top 500?

C'mon...if you're gonna hate, then don't screw around. Let's see some serious hate...rather than a rehash of the same arguments circulated by would be haters over the years.

 

This is a long comment, but reading it will vastly increase your knowledge of boxing. If you want to even begin to have a vast knowledge of boxing this is a must read. If not, you can never be blessed with the wisdom that geniuses possess.

Manny Pacquiao is an exciting fighter and a very good one. One of the best of his era and one of the best today. But he is not an all time great fighter. Like Floyd Mayweather, he is extremely overrated. The only point in doing the Mayweather-Pacquiao fight was/is to see which one is more overrated than the other. As overrated as Floyd Mayweather is (not a top 35 p4p fighter all time) Pacquiao probably would be even lower at around number 38-40. There is no shame in this. Boxing has a very deep history so it should not be surprising for well-informed boxing fans (myself) that Pacquiao is relatively low in the all time ranks. But it is true. Now back to the lecture at hand. Perfection is perfected so Imma let you understand.

Pacquiao has fought many of the same opponents as Mayweather, and since Mayweather is overrated it makes sense to say Pacquiao is overrated as well. Almost all of the names on both Manny and Floyd's records carry more marketability and name value than actual skill. Let's look at Pacquiao's "noteworthy" fights, starting with Barrera. Before Barrera, Pacquiao had not fought any notable fighters.

1) Marco Antonio Basura - Barrera was a good fighter but 2 wins over him don't make you an all time great. He beat the overrated and padded record Naseem Hamed + Johny Tapia, lost to Junior Jones, and Morales. Don't confuse name value with actual substance.

2) Marquez - in the first 2 fights, the fights were extremely close and regardless of who you think won those fights (that's a discussion for another day) Pacquiao did not CONVINCINGLY win those fights. Considering Pacquiao had 3 knockdowns in the first fight that is really shameful he could still not convincingly win that fight. The third fight Marquez put a whipping on Pac and obviously the 4th was the clearest of all 4 contests. What is undeniable is that Marquez beat Pacquiao a lot more clearly than vice versa. Marquez is a good fighter but do not blow his value out of proportion. Outside of Barrera and Pacquiao he has not beaten any notable fighters, and even lost to Chris John and Norwood. Casamayor is not a notable fighter

3) Overrated De La Hoya - Oscar is one of the most overrated fighters of all time, more so than Pacquiao or Mayweather.
Look at what happened to Oscar every time he fought a notable opponent. Pernell Whitaker (gift decision) Trinidad (running away for 3 rounds - not the quality of an elite fighter) Shane Mosley (2 whippings) Sturm (gift decision) Hopkins (knockout) Floyd (clearly lost and still gifted the win on one judge's scorecard). Oscar must have learned from Sven Ottke on how to get the judges on your side.
Chavez is not a notable opponent because he has a padded record with his biggest wins being Haugen, Camacho, and Meldrick Taylor - none of whom are elite fighters. Oscar has more name value and marketability than he has skill, so for Manny to beat Oscar in the last fight of Oscar's career is not notable.

4) Ricky Fatten Hatton - always overrated to begin with. More name value and marketability than skill. Biggest win was Paulie Malignaggi - a can. Beating an old Kosta Tzyu and Castillo is not notable. The fact that Ricky was rated so high on the pound for pound list at one point is a testament to how sheep quickly follow the herd instead of using their own common sense. Most pound for pound rankings are a popularity/marketability contest these days and do not accurately reflect true skill.

5) Miguel Cotto - good fighter but not all time great. Was already destroyed by Margacheato by the time he got to Manny. Outside of a deteriorating Shane Mosley he didn't beat top level guys. (Margarito was fading, Mayorga is basura, Judah and Malignaggi are paper champions)

6) Joshua Clottey - definition of a tomato can

7) Margacheato - already been through wars with Cotto, and had been previously exposed as a solid but not great fighter by Mosley, Williams, and Santos.

8. Shane Mosley - in his prime was a good fighter but he was faded when he fought Manny after his fights with Vernon Winky and Cotto.

9) Bradley - Pac won that fight. But Bradley is definitely not a great fighter, and beating him doesn't put you in the all time ranks. Squeaked by Provodnikov, beat an old Marquez. his wins over Alexander and Peterson are not notable.

10) Brandon Rios - a punching bag. tailor made for Pacquiao.

11) Erik Morales - outside of Pac and Barrera didn't beat anybody, and he lost to Barrera twice. Manny did avenge his loss to Morales but regardless beating Morales doesnt make you an all time great

Now keep this in mind - saying those past and future opponents have belts doesn't mean anything. John Ruiz was a champion but not exactly an elite fighter. Also saying stuff like oh Ricky Hatton/Barrera etc was rated such and such on the p4p list at the time doesn't prove anything. At one point overrated Oscar was the number 1 p4p ahead of guys like Roy Jones and Holyfield while other fighters like Hamed + Tapia were ahead of Lennox Lewis. Now that Golden Boy is in charge of Ring Magazine the p4p rankings show extreme bias towards certain fighters. (putting Canelo in the top 10 p4p and listing him as the lineal 154 champ before Floyd beat him). Most pound for pound rankings are a popularity/marketability contest these days and do not accurately reflect true skill. Obviously modern rankings are not reliable. Copy pasting rankings/records/statistics proves nothing if you don't put them in context. Doing so will not make paper champions (Hatton/Rios/Oscar) appear more legitimate.

Also keep in mind - records don't mean everything - Brian Nielsen 64-3, rocky Marciano 49-0 joe calzaghe 45-1 (the Hopkins win was a robbery), Ricky hatton 45-3 better records statistically compared to guys like evander 44-10-2, Ali 56-5, roy jones 57-8, b hopkins 54-6-2 even though they couldn't hold a candle to these fighters. Manny's record is padded just like Floyd's, and does not legitimize Manny as a top 40 pound for pound fighter.

What has been written is UNDISPUTABLE FACT. Not opinion. I challenge any human being on earth to try and find fault with the flawless wisdom (of the highest degree humanly possible) that has been written.

All of these boxers (IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER) are pound for pound better than Manny. A higher pound for pound ranking means that fighter X's career is more impressive/notable/accomplished. These are not the only ones out there better than Manny. Yes, all boxers of every era (including the ones higher than Manny) have fought tomato cans and bums like Manny and Floyd have, but these men's wins against notable opponents far outweigh anything that a present day fighter has done or will do, at least for the foreseeable future.

 

1. Joe Louis - beat Schmeling, Baer, Braddock, Conn, Walcott. Had 25 title defenses in 11 years.

2. Sam langford - a lightweight beating up heavyweights, was 30 pounds lighter than heavyweight Jack Johnson when he fought him, also beat Harry Wills, Gans and Ketchel. A lightweight fighting an all time great heavyweight and giving him a competitive fight is much more impressive than winning minor belts in 8 weight classes vs paper champions

3. Henry Armstrong - number 2 p4p all time. Held 3 titles simultaneously in an era with only 8 weight classes and one title per class. No Junior/Super weight classes and no 4 belts per weight class. Beat Barney Ross, Fritzie Zivic and more

4. Walker Smith (Sugar Ray Rob) - the greatest. No need to explain but I will anyway because these kids these days don't know nothing bout boxing. 128-1-2 in his prime, and he fought and beat the best of his era even after his prime - Olson, Lamotta, Basora, Turpin, Fullmer, Costner, Gavilan you could go on and on

5. Ray Leonard - finished Benitez, made Duran quit, came from behind to beat Tommy Hearns. After a 3 year layoff moved up in weight to fight Hagler and in my opinion lost but you could make a case for either guy winning.

6. Marvin Hagler - finished Hearns in 3 rds. again, you could score Leonard Hagler either way. beat Duran. KOd Mugabi and beat Hamsho twice

7. Tommy Hearns - got robbed in a rematch with Ray Leonard. KOd Duran in 2 ROUNDS!!!! beat Benitez. Even when he was past his prime he beat Virgil Hill. He did lose to Barkley but Barkley was much bigger than him and styles make fights.

8. Roberto Duran - first man to beat Ray Leonard. also beat Iran Barkley (and Duran is a natural LIGHTWEIGHT). The greatest 135er of all time. Had one slip up vs Esteban Jesus (and relatively early in his career) which he avenged easily.

9. Roy jones - had a lot of not so great opposition but - he beat Hopkins with a broken right hand EASILY, destroyed an undefeated James Toney, beat Cesar Gonzalez, KOd Virgil Hill, was a middleweight and moved up to heavyweight to win a belt. - Of course, Ruiz is not a great heavyweight but regardless it is mind blowing that a middleweight had the skill to even step in to a ring versus a heavyweight let alone dominate. Thats not as crazy as Langford fighting Jack Johnson but its still insane.

10. Bhopkins - I would say his robbery vs Calzaghe was a notable win especially at over 40 but Calzaghe fought bums his whole career - a washed up RJJ doesnt count. Regardless - BHop dominated an undefeated Trinidad, KOd Oscar (who is overrated but the same competition that Floyd and Manny fought - only less washed up when he fought Bernard), beat Winky Wright, the only man to finish Glen Johnson, moved up 2 classes to beat Tarver, destroyed an undefeated Pavlik at over 40 years old. and beat Pascal twice even though he got robbed with a draw. - still fighting at the highest level at the age of 49

11. Ezzard Charles - beat the great Joe Louis. as a blown up 175er he was making overrated Marciano have problems. Beat guys like Maxim, Bivins, Archie Moore, and Reynolds. You young kids these days don't know nothing about the real boxers so you probably won't recognize those names. However, they were more substance than name value - which you can't say about today's era. Beat and lost to Jersey Joe Walcott also

12. Archie Moore - Also like Ezzard, a blown up 175er who gave Marciano a lot of problems. Beat, Maxim, Olson, Valdes,

13. Jersey Joe Walcott - beat Charles, Bivins, Maxim, etc. Crushed overrated Rocky as a blown up 175er before getting KOd. (Remember, you have to factor in that this is a old fighter at a much lower natural weight class whipping a top level HW - he did lose, but the fact that he and guys like Moore and Charles were causing problems despite those disadvantages is notable - just like Langford making Johnson have a tough fight)

14. Evander Holyfield - Undisputed Cruiser and Heavyweight champ. Beat Qawi at cruiser. Easily beat Riddick Bowe in fight 2, avenged his loss to Moorer, beat Tyson, beat an old Foreman and Holmes - who were still notable wins despite being old (unlike Oscar or some other guys), beat Ray Mercer too. For a natural cruiser to dominate the HW division is mind-blowing (even if he was roided out of his mind - skills pay the bills)

15. Lennox Lewis - beat every man he ever faced. Beat Holyfield twice. Finished Tommy Morrison. KOd Golota in one round (who should've beaten Bowe if he wasn't an idiot). Smashed in the overrated Vitali's face despite being 38, fat, and in the worst shape of his career while Vitali was in his prime.

16. Larry Holmes - beat Cooney, Shavers twice, Norton, and robbed vs Spinks. Even though Larry was old he still beat Ray Mercer.

17. Muhammad Ali - Patterson, Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton (he did get a few gifts though), Quarry, Bonavena, Ellis. Not much explanation needed

18. Joe Frazier - the only people to beat him are Foreman and Ali. Still beat Ali, Quarry, Bob Foster, Bonavena, Jimmy Ellis.

19. George Foreman - absolutely crushed Frazier and Norton. beat Ronny Lyle. In his old age he gave Holyfield a tough fight when he shouldn't have even been in the ring at 40+. Won the title again in his old age KOing Moorer. His old version still beat Gerry Cooney.

20. Willie Pep - greatest defensive fighter of all time. Beat top contenders but the majority of you people won't know any of their names so no reason to waste time writing them.

21. Jack Johnson - he did duck Langford after beating him, but he still whipped top guys like Jeffries, Fitzsimmons (the only other man to do what RJJ did going from MW to HW), Burns, Ketchel. And he fought in a bare knuckle era so he had to deal with taking more punishment. Despite his ducking, the fights he didn't duck make his career better than Manny's by far. And he had the balls to marry a white woman in the early 20th century.

22. Harry Greb - only man to beat Tunney. Ducked by Dempsey. beat Micky Walker.

23. Pernell Whitaker - he did have some weak opposition but theres a few things he has that put him above. He had much better defense than Floyd or Manny - and thats not a knock on Floyd. Pernell was just that good. He crushed Oscar when Oscar was in his prime and Pernell was near the end. Old Pernell did much better against prime Oscar than a prime Floyd did against an old Oscar. He also beat Vasquez and Azumah Nelson (2 guys that don't get respect because they were more substance than name value), and beat Chavez easy. Chavez was overrated, but the manner in which Pernell crushed him is unbelievable and the manner in which he beat Chavez is enough to put him high. Pernell beating Chavez is more impressive than Oscar beating Chavez, because Chavez was still undefeated when Pernell whipped him.

24. Sandy Saddler - his wins over Willie Pep alone are enough to put him over Manny.

25. Tiger Flowers - wins over Micky Walker, and multiple wins over Greb. More notable than any of Manny's wins

26. Barney Ross - beat Canzoneri, Ceferino and McLarnin. More notable than Manny's struggles against Marquez and his wins over Barrera.

27. Mickey Walker - wins over Britton and Flowers far more notable than any of Manny's wins.

28. Gene Tunney - Tunney is overrated because the majority of his career he fought a lot of bums. But so did Manny. If they weren't bums, they were washed up, padded records, or also overrated. Because Tunney and Manny are both overrated, Tunney's wins over Greb, Jeff Smith, Gibbons, and also overrated Dempsey are more notable than Manny's career of even weaker opposition.

29. Joe Gans - Did fight a lot of bums but his notable wins are greater than Manny's - Dobbs, Elbows Mcfadden, Steve Crosby, etc.

30. Benny Leonard - Same thing as Gans - beat Britt, Welsh, Kilbane, Britton

31. Bob Fitzsimmons - looks are deceiving. Other than RJJ he is the only guy to go from middleweight to the heavyweight title. Big wins over Peter Maher and Philly Jack O Brien.

32. Jimmy McLarnin - beat Canzoneri, Glick, Benny Leonard and Barney Ross. notable wins are greater than Manny's

33. Tony Canzoneri - beat Bill Petrolle, Kid Chocolate, Klick, Dublinsky - all bigger wins than Manny's wins.

34. Jake Lamotta - Raging Bull is one of the most overrated films ever made. But Lamotta beat the GOAT once, Zivic multiple times, and Basora. If you think any of Manny's wins are even close to on par with an undefeated Sugar Ray Rob you are delusional.

 

35. James Toney - at the very very least, you can say that he is on the same level as Manny. Finished the underrated and undefeated Michael Nunn, beat Mike McCallum, went from middleweight and should have won the HW title if it wasn't for a failed drug test. Regardless - skills pay the bills, not drugs so that doesnt diminish his HW accomplishments. Even though Evander was old when James TKOd him, it is still impressive coming from a middleweight. Thats more impressive than Manny beating paper champions in 8 weight classes.

36. Carlos Monzon - another extremely overrated fighter with 90% of his career full of no names. But Manny is also overrated with around the same level of weak competition, so when looking at Monzon and Manny from an equally overrated point of view, Monzon's wins over Griffith, Benvenuti, Mundine, Moyer surpass Manny's best wins.

37. Floyd Mayweather - Floyd is overrated as hell and he is not in the top 35 of all time (remember this is not a sequential p4p ranking, it's pure coincidence that Floyd is listed after 35). But he has fought the same level of overrated, washed up, padded record competition as Manny and performed better. Therefore he is higher ranked than Manny.

38. Emile Griffith - also overrated, but his wins over Rodriguez, Benvenuti, Tiger, and Archer outclass Manny's weak wins.

There may be more, but I don't want to bless you with too much knowledge or it might be too much for you people to handle. When you try to give sight to blind sheep that follow the herd, you have to open their eyes slowly. Opening the eyes of blind sheep too quickly might be counterproductive - since blind sheep will deny the truth even more vehemently after being exposed to too much truth in a short amount of time.

The following arguments that I am going to write below this paragraph are fallacious and if anyone tries to use these arguments to dispute these facts that have been written it will only prove one's own incompetence - much like Pacquiao has demonstrated incompetence in attempting to become an all time great, when he is only a top 38-40 p4p fighter. I will dismantle these weak arguments in the same way Marquez dismantled Manny in their last fight.

1) Manny makes his opponents look bad thats why it seems like their bums - NO. the INDISPUTABLE FACT is that his opponents are unworthy of holding a belt, past their prime, old, washed up, overrated, padded records, or any combination of these. (With the ONE exception of Marquez - whom Manny struggled against.)

2) A lot of Manny's wins like Oscar, Hatton, Cotto, were against champions/ex-champions - That means nothing. You don't even have to be an elite fighter to be a champion in boxing today and that is a testament to how comparatively weak this era is compared to past eras. All these guys were/are champions too Lamont Peterson, Danny Green, John Ruiz, Byrd, Sanders, Valuev, Angel Cuello. There's a difference between fighting belt-holders and real champions (Big 4 era, pre mid-2000s HW era, etc.) This isn't an era where holding belts in multiple weight classes actually means something. Even a fool like Broner is a 2 division champ and he skipped 140. You can't compare that to Henry Armstrong simultaneously being the FW, LW, and WW champ (in an era with only 8 weight classes no less).

3) All the great past fighters lost - So what? They fought much better competition than Manny. Langford fought Harry Wills and Jack Johnson. Roy Jones fought McCallum Hopkins and Toney. Henry Armstrong fought Barney Ross and Ray Robinson. These fighters are lightyears beyond Manny's competition, as well as Floyd's

4) Manny has won belts in 8 classes - What's your point? This is not an era where that means a lot. There are four major belts per class, and Manny won a lot of minor belts (OPFB, WBC International Silver belt) against paper champions. You can't compare this to Henry Armstrong holding 3 titles possible in 3 weight classes (when there was only one belt per class) out of 8 possible weight classes. Manny fought a weak level of competition in winning his belts. In the past eras, there was one title per class, no Super/Junior weight classes, no 4 belts per class, no minor intercontinental, international belts. Manny has won mostly paper championships in 8 classes against weak competition like Chockvivat, Sasakul, Jamili, Sakmuangklang, David Diaz. Don't recognize those names? Of course not. They are paper champions. Not the competition that makes you an all time great.

5) Oh well Manny fights in this era you can't compare him to other eras - I just did. Manny fights in a weak era compared to the strong eras of the past. Because of that, Manny's wins are not anywhere near as notable as the past fighters extremely notable wins.

Again, everything that has been written is based on IRREFUTABLE FACTUAL (not opinionated) statements. I challenge any human being on earth to try and disprove the wisdom that I have so graciously bestowed upon everyone who is reading this. I know everything, so I cannot be proven wrong with the wisdom and facts that I have presented. What has been written is wisdom of the highest degree and realistically/knowledgeably disputing or refuting this flawless masterpiece is an impossible task. Even the non-sequentially listed pound for pound list (when most p4p lists are subjective) is completely objective, unbiased, and FACTUAL - not opinionated. You might say - well all pound for pound lists are subjective/opinionated. That is normally the case, but you have to factor in that this is MY pound for pound list (with the fighters listed in no particular order) - that makes it non-subjective and flawless.

If someone miraculously does disprove the wisdom and magnanimous knowledge encompassed in the FACTUAL arguments above, I will respond and acknowledge my mistake. Unfortunately, that task is literally impossible so my response will never happen. I have been gracious enough to bestow this wisdom upon the readers of this mastery and one should not open their mouth (or type on their keyboard) unless it is in agreement with what has been presented. Foolishly attempting to disagree will only prove one's own incompetence in the same way Manny proved his incompetence multiple times vs Marquez and in the first Morales fight.

 

Yes

 

I think Toney and Charles belong above Hopkins but that's my opinion but great list.And Manny overrated well I have to disagree his wins over Barrera ,Morales and Marquez defiantly do make him overrated.

 

The list was in no particular order

 

Got you :good

 

Then, if you would be so kind...please hut the hell up. Very few fighters in history have accomplished what FMJ has been able to accomplish over the course of his career, or maintain an ability to fight as well over as extended a period of time as he has over the course of his career.


And this is coming from someone who probably wouldn't rate him any higher than, say, 45-50 on an all time great list (in spite of rating him an easy top 3 among 130lb champions).

 

I doubt you know everything but you certainly seem to know your boxing. Very informative post whether or not your conclusion is agreed with.

 

"We thought Manny Pacquiao was great, he's better than we thought"

Pac's accomplishments speaks for itself. What you just did, I could do with any fighter in history. Ali, Duran etc.

It's easy to tear down a great resume by focusing on the negative, it's a whole other achieving that great resume.

 

Hang on a second , if by overating Manny and Floyd you are saying people think they are the best of all time then yes they are.

But I have Floyd and Manny top 50 just.

I think that is a good yard stick

 

Regardless. It would not make them lower ranked than Pacquiao