Most overrated HW of all time.

Hamburger · Feb 21, 2014

Rocky Marciano clearly and if you don't agree either you are racist or just don't know boxing.

Stevie G · Feb 22, 2014

bonbon said: ↑

Ali is the most overrated HW of all time, and whats more that whole generation are vastly overrated.
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Very much a sweeping statement. Give a few examples to quantify your thoughts.

Flemo83 · Feb 22, 2014

I Know Everythi said: ↑

Both Klitschkos are extremely overrated since they have been placed among the top 10 p4p for the past few years in several p4p lists. To claim that they are underrated is fallacious and a terrible farce. Simply copy pasting statistics such as the Klitschkos W-L record or KO ratios and numerically comparing them to other great heavyweights simply demonstrates an inability to use logical thinking and an inability to put these misleading statistics into context. After the Holyfield Bowe Tyson Lewis era was finished, the post early 2000s heavyweight division became the weakest division in the history of any weight class of any era since perhaps the beginning of boxing as a sport.

All of the wins in both Klitschkos resumes come against fighters years and years beyond their prime, with padded records, with no name fighters who should not be in a boxing ring to begin with, or some combination of these flaws.

The biggest and most impressive win on both Klitschko's resume is Samuel Peter - who still managed to knock down the bum Wladimir 3 times in one fight. Samuel Peter as your best win does not make you an all time great or a top 10 p4p fighter for several years. In a weak era where Samuel Peter was the best fighter you beat (and one that Wladimir struggled with), it doesn't matter how many title defenses, knockouts, wins, etc. you have. You are not among the elite.

Lennox Lewis - even at 38 years old, fat, in the worst shape of his career, was barely losing on the scorecard 58-56 to Vitali - which could easily have been scored a draw at that point (yet so many idiotic fans try to use this slim edge as validation that Klitschko "won" the fight) and still managed to take complete control of the fight heading into the 6th round and smashed Vitali's face so badly that a medical professional could not allow Vitali to get further annihilated and, in hindsight, Lennox exposed Vitali as a fraudulent champion fighting in a weak era like Rocky Marciano.

Vitali was not dominating the fight. He had a decent start and as the fight went on he was eating uppercuts left and right and continued to clinch excessively. Lennox Lewis (remember - a 38 year old, fat, out of shape Lennox Lewis) still gave him fits and forced a doctor to stop the fight because Vitali was taking such a beating. Ironically people consider this humiliating face bashing to be Vitali's shining moment - that shows how overrated of a boxer you are when getting your faced smashed while having the slimmest of leads on the scorecard is your crowning achievement.

What I have written is UNDISPUTED truth and FACTUAL. This is not opinion or conjecture. I challenge any human being on earth to try and dispute the infallible assertion that, in general, the Klitshkos are extremely overrated by the media and public.

The following arguments do not disprove what has been written above and if one uses these fallacious arguments it will only prove one's own incompetence - much like Wladimir proved his incompetence as a boxer in getting demolished by Brewster (and falsely making up a poison excuse, no less.) Sanders and Puritty, and how Vitali demonstrated his incompetence as a boxer in having a relatively terrible performance against a trash version of Lennox Lewis.

1) Vitali is 45-2 with losses coming by injury stoppages and a 87% KO ratio. Wladimir is 59-3 with 51 KOs. Few boxers can match these numbers.
And who was the best opponent these boxers beat? Samuel Peter. Padded records mean nothing. Brian Nielsen was 49-0 at one point. Eric Esch was 61-1-3 at one point. Copy pasting statistics does not prove anything when you fail to put them in context. I highly doubt anyone is foolish enough to put Eric Esch above Evander Holyfield despite the fact that Esch has a higher winning percentage. If Holyfield fought both Klitschko's level of competition he would walk through them without a scratch.

2) Lennox Lewis was afraid of Vitali and ducked a rematch.
First of all - Lennox Lewis made Riddick Bowe duck HIM, he fought Holyfield twice, was willing to fight Tyson for several years and finally did, fought Mccall and Rahman even after being KOd, and Tommy Morrison, but some people are foolish enough to think he is scared of fighting KLITSCHKO of all people???
Secondly as mentioned several times - Lennox was 38, fat, in the worst shape ever, past his prime, and still made Vitali's face look like the deer my friend killed and put through the grinder a few weeks ago.
Thirdly - Why should a man in the physical twilight of his career (Lennox) risk his health for one more fight when he didn't take the fight seriously in the first place (still winning by TKO) and already proved his place among the all time greats? Vitali should be on his knees kissing Lennox's feet for even giving a bum like Klitschko the opportunity to fight an all time great like Lennox. Lennox isn't in the position of Joe Louis who had to come back and fight because of IRS problems, so he has no reason to risk his health after already risking it for over a decade against fighters lightyears beyond Klitschko.

3) the Klitschkos are foreign so they do not get respect.
really? Marquez, Pacquiao, Chavez sr, Duran, Monzon, Sergio Martinez, Genady Golovkin, Adonis Stevenson, Maidana, Rigondeux, Donaire do not get respect?
anyone who said this - shut up. No need to pull the race/nationality card

4) The Klitschkos records are numerically similar/better than other great heavyweights like Evander, Tyson, Ali, Foreman, etc.
Again, copy pasting statistics does not prove anything. Look at the men that the REAL heavyweights had to fight compared to the bum Klitschkos.
Bowe, Lennox, Moorer, Tua, Tyson, Evander, Morrison, Spinks, Foreman, Patterson, Frazier, Norton, Liston, etc.

Now lets compare the Klitschkos wins - Peter, old washed up Mercer, old washed up Rahman, Chris Byrd, Orlin Norris (who lost to a washed up Tyson), Purrity, Sanders, 38 year old fat Lennox, Chisora, Haye, Povetkin, Eddie Chambers. the hilarious thing is that they actually lost to some of these fighters on the list.

HUGE difference in competition.

Anyone who legitimately believes the farce that either Klitschko is an all time great heavyweight (let alone an ATG p4p fighter) is simply one of the many sheep that blindly follow the herd without thinking for themselves. I have blessed such blind sheep with my wisdom and knowledge and opened their eyes to the truth. It is time for these blind sheep to acknowledge the truth, otherwise I fear that these sheep blindly stumbling through the dark for so long will deny the truth even more vehemently now that these blind sheep have been exposed to the light of truth.

You do have to give the Klitschkos credit for dominating the division, even though it is incredibly weak. That in itself deserves SOME merit. You should not, however, put them among the all time greats after Vitali has been exposed by Lennox Lewis and Wladimir got showed up by Purrity Brewster and Sanders, and struggled against Sam Peter.

Again - I challenge any human being to try and refute my indisputable factual statements at the risk of making themselves look as incompetent as the Klitschkos in their attempts to be ranked among all time great heavyweights. If any human being can refute the irrefutable facts listed, I will respond and recognize their superior wisdom and knowledge. Unfortunately for Klitschko fans, the only people who possess wisdom and knowledge superior to myself would never try and refute these facts in the first place. For that reason, the chances of receiving a response from myself are negligible.
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Totally agree with you on this. The only credit the klitschko's deserve is that they have both stayed focused and continued to train properly for fights against fighters that are quite frankly shite.

Stevie G · Feb 22, 2014

Vitali and Wladimir are,by far,te best since Lennox Lewis retired.

DrBanzai · Feb 22, 2014

Stevie G said: ↑

Interesting post. It's almost as if Ali was the only fighter in history to have been given a lucky decision. I'll remind you of one or two things -

The Jones fight was a learning curve. No more a robbery than Frazier-Bonavena I,Foreman-Peralta I and Tyson-Tillis.

Liston was thoroughly outboxed and outfought in their first fight. If Sonny had n't have quit at the end of the sixth,Ali would have stopped him at some point anyway.

The second Norton fight was extremely close but Ali pulled it out in the last round. Yes,Muhammad was lucky in getting the decision in the Young and Norton III bouts. This was post Manilla and as we know Ali was never quite the same after that one.

The second Frazier fight was pretty close but not as much as Norton II was. Most agree that Ali deserved the verdict in that one.

By the time the Evangelista,Shavers and Spinks battles came round,the champion had declined big time ! How on Earth can you claim that Spinks nearly won in the second fight,though ? :huh It is consensual that Ali won by at least ten rounds.

Finally,think about the George Foreman fight. How many others could have done that sort of job on Big George at that point
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Liston was past it and near 40 when Ali beat him, George was green and a child at 24. Still good wins but very over rated since neither man was anywhere near his prime.

Rock0052 · Feb 22, 2014

Easily Ali, and not because he wasn't a great fighter. For many, he's more myth than man. To even suggest he might lose is a blasphemy. He's so overrated he's create a halo effect that spans his entire era- if you beat or fought Ali close, you must've been great to ATG, yourself. Then anyone that fought you close or beat you had there stock lifted the same way.

What we end up with is an entire era that gets overrated H2H and historically based solely on Muhammad Ali (who was a great fighter, it's the fans who do this) and the halo effect.

turpinr · Feb 22, 2014

to say ali is overrated is like not rating Tyson or saying that a fighter from a 100 years ago would beat a fighter from the present day based on the fact that he had 267 fights and once arm wrestled a gorilla to death.its crap !!! Dempsey and Marciano were both great champions in there day but wouldn't have a sniff nowadays.

jesse · Feb 22, 2014

I Know Everythi said: ↑

Both Klitschkos are extremely overrated since they have been placed among the top 10 p4p for the past few years in several p4p lists. To claim that they are underrated is fallacious and a terrible farce. Simply copy pasting statistics such as the Klitschkos W-L record or KO ratios and numerically comparing them to other great heavyweights simply demonstrates an inability to use logical thinking and an inability to put these misleading statistics into context. After the Holyfield Bowe Tyson Lewis era was finished, the post early 2000s heavyweight division became the weakest division in the history of any weight class of any era since perhaps the beginning of boxing as a sport.

All of the wins in both Klitschkos resumes come against fighters years and years beyond their prime, with padded records, with no name fighters who should not be in a boxing ring to begin with, or some combination of these flaws.

The biggest and most impressive win on both Klitschko's resume is Samuel Peter - who still managed to knock down the bum Wladimir 3 times in one fight. Samuel Peter as your best win does not make you an all time great or a top 10 p4p fighter for several years. In a weak era where Samuel Peter was the best fighter you beat (and one that Wladimir struggled with), it doesn't matter how many title defenses, knockouts, wins, etc. you have. You are not among the elite.

Lennox Lewis - even at 38 years old, fat, in the worst shape of his career, was barely losing on the scorecard 58-56 to Vitali - which could easily have been scored a draw at that point (yet so many idiotic fans try to use this slim edge as validation that Klitschko "won" the fight) and still managed to take complete control of the fight heading into the 6th round and smashed Vitali's face so badly that a medical professional could not allow Vitali to get further annihilated and, in hindsight, Lennox exposed Vitali as a fraudulent champion fighting in a weak era like Rocky Marciano.

Vitali was not dominating the fight. He had a decent start and as the fight went on he was eating uppercuts left and right and continued to clinch excessively. Lennox Lewis (remember - a 38 year old, fat, out of shape Lennox Lewis) still gave him fits and forced a doctor to stop the fight because Vitali was taking such a beating. Ironically people consider this humiliating face bashing to be Vitali's shining moment - that shows how overrated of a boxer you are when getting your faced smashed while having the slimmest of leads on the scorecard is your crowning achievement.

What I have written is UNDISPUTED truth and FACTUAL. This is not opinion or conjecture. I challenge any human being on earth to try and dispute the infallible assertion that, in general, the Klitshkos are extremely overrated by the media and public.

The following arguments do not disprove what has been written above and if one uses these fallacious arguments it will only prove one's own incompetence - much like Wladimir proved his incompetence as a boxer in getting demolished by Brewster (and falsely making up a poison excuse, no less.) Sanders and Puritty, and how Vitali demonstrated his incompetence as a boxer in having a relatively terrible performance against a trash version of Lennox Lewis.

1) Vitali is 45-2 with losses coming by injury stoppages and a 87% KO ratio. Wladimir is 59-3 with 51 KOs. Few boxers can match these numbers.
And who was the best opponent these boxers beat? Samuel Peter. Padded records mean nothing. Brian Nielsen was 49-0 at one point. Eric Esch was 61-1-3 at one point. Copy pasting statistics does not prove anything when you fail to put them in context. I highly doubt anyone is foolish enough to put Eric Esch above Evander Holyfield despite the fact that Esch has a higher winning percentage. If Holyfield fought both Klitschko's level of competition he would walk through them without a scratch.

2) Lennox Lewis was afraid of Vitali and ducked a rematch.
First of all - Lennox Lewis made Riddick Bowe duck HIM, he fought Holyfield twice, was willing to fight Tyson for several years and finally did, fought Mccall and Rahman even after being KOd, and Tommy Morrison, but some people are foolish enough to think he is scared of fighting KLITSCHKO of all people???
Secondly as mentioned several times - Lennox was 38, fat, in the worst shape ever, past his prime, and still made Vitali's face look like the deer my friend killed and put through the grinder a few weeks ago.
Thirdly - Why should a man in the physical twilight of his career (Lennox) risk his health for one more fight when he didn't take the fight seriously in the first place (still winning by TKO) and already proved his place among the all time greats? Vitali should be on his knees kissing Lennox's feet for even giving a bum like Klitschko the opportunity to fight an all time great like Lennox. Lennox isn't in the position of Joe Louis who had to come back and fight because of IRS problems, so he has no reason to risk his health after already risking it for over a decade against fighters lightyears beyond Klitschko.

3) the Klitschkos are foreign so they do not get respect.
really? Marquez, Pacquiao, Chavez sr, Duran, Monzon, Sergio Martinez, Genady Golovkin, Adonis Stevenson, Maidana, Rigondeux, Donaire do not get respect?
anyone who said this - shut up. No need to pull the race/nationality card

4) The Klitschkos records are numerically similar/better than other great heavyweights like Evander, Tyson, Ali, Foreman, etc.
Again, copy pasting statistics does not prove anything. Look at the men that the REAL heavyweights had to fight compared to the bum Klitschkos.
Bowe, Lennox, Moorer, Tua, Tyson, Evander, Morrison, Spinks, Foreman, Patterson, Frazier, Norton, Liston, etc.

Now lets compare the Klitschkos wins - Peter, old washed up Mercer, old washed up Rahman, Chris Byrd, Orlin Norris (who lost to a washed up Tyson), Purrity, Sanders, 38 year old fat Lennox, Chisora, Haye, Povetkin, Eddie Chambers. the hilarious thing is that they actually lost to some of these fighters on the list.

HUGE difference in competition.

Anyone who legitimately believes the farce that either Klitschko is an all time great heavyweight (let alone an ATG p4p fighter) is simply one of the many sheep that blindly follow the herd without thinking for themselves. I have blessed such blind sheep with my wisdom and knowledge and opened their eyes to the truth. It is time for these blind sheep to acknowledge the truth, otherwise I fear that these sheep blindly stumbling through the dark for so long will deny the truth even more vehemently now that these blind sheep have been exposed to the light of truth.

You do have to give the Klitschkos credit for dominating the division, even though it is incredibly weak. That in itself deserves SOME merit. You should not, however, put them among the all time greats after Vitali has been exposed by Lennox Lewis and Wladimir got showed up by Purrity Brewster and Sanders, and struggled against Sam Peter.

Again - I challenge any human being to try and refute my indisputable factual statements at the risk of making themselves look as incompetent as the Klitschkos in their attempts to be ranked among all time great heavyweights. If any human being can refute the irrefutable facts listed, I will respond and recognize their superior wisdom and knowledge. Unfortunately for Klitschko fans, the only people who possess wisdom and knowledge superior to myself would never try and refute these facts in the first place. For that reason, the chances of receiving a response from myself are negligible.
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You calling Vitali Klitschko a bum proves you have no knowledge or wisdom. Iknownothing never ceases to fail:yep

Hookandjab · Feb 22, 2014

This is to Steve G. Thanks for the reply. I was at the Foreman/ Peralta 1 fight, and remember Fraiser/Bonavena 1. Foreman & Fraiser were surely tested in those bouts, but the decisions were not unfair. So many decisions were rendered unfairly in Ali's favor. If his record contained the following would he still be considered the Greatest"?: Loss by decision to Jones, No Contest vs Cooper 1, No Contest vs Liston 2, Loss by decision to Fraiser 1 & 2, Loss by decision to Young, Loss by decision to Norton 1,2 & 3, Draw vs Shavers? I should add here that not only did he get preferential treatment from the press and ring judges, but from refs as well. For example, why was he not forced to go to a neutral corner after knocking down Bonavena? Even the rules didn't apply to him.

Stevie G · Feb 22, 2014

Hookandjab said: ↑

This is to Steve G. Thanks for the reply. I was at the Foreman/ Peralta 1 fight, and remember Fraiser/Bonavena 1. Foreman & Fraiser were surely tested in those bouts, but the decisions were not unfair. So many decisions were rendered unfairly in Ali's favor. If his record contained the following would he still be considered the Greatest"?: Loss by decision to Jones, No Contest vs Cooper 1, No Contest vs Liston 2, Loss by decision to Fraiser 1 & 2, Loss by decision to Young, Loss by decision to Norton 1,2 & 3, Draw vs Shavers? I should add here that not only did he get preferential treatment from the press and ring judges, but from refs as well. For example, why was he not forced to go to a neutral corner after knocking down Bonavena? Even the rules didn't apply to him.
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I suppose the same question could be asked about Louis-Walcott I,Holmes-Williams and Spinks-Holmes II.

Welcome to the site,by the way.

StGeorge · Feb 22, 2014

jesse said: ↑

you calling vitali klitschko a bum proves you have no knowledge or wisdom. Iknownothing never ceases to fail:yep
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+1

Azzer85 · Feb 22, 2014

Zakman said: ↑

Mumbo jumbo, excuses and spin are the stock in trade of the Lewis overrating brigade. And to think the Lewis Camp started all this crap themselves with their silly and disingenous "Chicken Bowe" campaign. And then they tried the same **** on Holyfield and Tyson. Gee, those guys all managed to fight each other, except for the external circumstances that prevented Tyson-Bowe. Hell, Holyfiled fought ALL of them, and he's the only one to do it. One of the MANY reasons why he's the best HW since Holmes.
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i find it hilarious when Lewis fans claim that Holyfield, Bowe and Tyson ducked Lewis for a long time until they were finally cornered into fighting him.

mcall, Rahman, Morrison, Bruno etc, these guys certainly weren't scared of Lewis but the crram of the crop were.

Bowe putting the belt in the can has become so overblown, i did cover this on a previous thread, Bowe put the belt in the bin in spite of the wbc, it had nothing to do with Lewis at all.

Tyson didn't pay Lewis step aside money. Lewis was Tysons mandatory, but Tyson wanted the Holyfield payday. Tyson was forced to pay Lewis loss of earnings For not giving him the fight.

what was Tyson meant to do? Face the lightly regarded Lewis who just been knocked out, for peanuts or face Holyfield for big bucks. He fought Holyfield twice and made over $30m for each fight whereas hed have made nothing near that for facing Lewis in 96. For a guy whose just been released from prison that's a hella lot of money.

in an SI mqgqzine Tyson stated he knew he wasn't ready for the Holyfield but took it because he desperately needed the money and Don King dangled the paycheck in front of him

As for Tyson Bowe. Bowe and Newman visited Tyson just before his release to try and sort out a fight, according to Bowe, they decided not to fight because they were friends from the same neighborhood in Brownsville. However had Tyson got past Holyfield and Bowe past Golota, this fight most likely would have happened. After the Golota fights Bowe retired in 97 and Tyson was banned from 97-99 for the bite fight.

mr. magoo · Feb 22, 2014

Azzer85 said: ↑

i find it hilarious when Lewis fans claim that Holyfield, Bowe and Tyson ducked Lewis for a long time until they were finally cornered into fighting him.

mcall, Rahman, Morrison, Bruno etc, these guys certainly weren't scared of Lewis but the crram of the crop were.

Bowe putting the belt in the can has become so overblown, i did cover this on a previous thread, Bowe put the belt in the bin in spite of the wbc, it had nothing to do with Lewis at all.

Tyson didn't pay Lewis step aside money. Lewis was Tysons mandatory, but Tyson wanted the Holyfield payday. Tyson was forced to pay Lewis loss of earnings For not giving him the fight.

what was Tyson meant to do? Face the lightly regarded Lewis who just been knocked out, for peanuts or face Holyfield for big bucks. He fought Holyfield twice and made over $30m for each fight whereas hed have made nothing near that for facing Lewis in 96. For a guy whose just been released from prison that's a hella lot of money.

in an SI mqgqzine Tyson stated he knew he wasn't ready for the Holyfield but took it because he desperately needed the money and Don King dangled the paycheck in front of him

As for Tyson Bowe. Bowe and Newman visited Tyson just before his release to try and sort out a fight, according to Bowe, they decided not to fight because they were friends from the same neighborhood in Brownsville. However had Tyson got past Holyfield and Bowe past Golota, this fight most likely would have happened. After the Golota fights Bowe retired in 97 and Tyson was banned from 97-99 for the bite fight.
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I won't accuse Tyson nor Holyfield of ducking Lewis. But Riddick Bowe BLATANTLY ducked him and no political argument about the WBC can hide that fact. Bowe signed a contract with the understanding that if he got his shot against Evander Holyfield that he would have to face Lewis next. What the exact reasons were for him negating this contract to fight a shot Michael Dokes and Jesse Ferguson instead, I don't know. But something tells me that neither Bowe nor Rock Newman expected Lewis to do to Ruddock what he did, and part of that played a role...

Azzer85 · Feb 22, 2014

mr. magoo said: ↑

I won't accuse Tyson nor Holyfield of ducking Lewis. But Riddick Bowe BLATANTLY ducked him and no political argument about the WBC can hide that fact. Bowe signed a contract with the understanding that if he got his shot against Evander Holyfield that he would have to face Lewis next. What the exact reasons were for him negating this contract to fight a shot Michael Dokes and Jesse Ferguson instead, I don't know. But something tells me that neither Bowe nor Rock Newman expected Lewis to do to Ruddock what he did, and part of that played a role...
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I go to and fro regarding Bowe, sometimes i do feel he ducked Lewis (see video after Bowes fight with Lewis commentating) where Bowes language is telling 'i thought we were cool man, your not the man i thought you were'

The reason Bowe dumped the belt in the garbage was because of something to do with sanctioning fees with the WBC, Bowe refused to pay and basically dumped the belt in the bin to say screw you, to the WBC, this is why he then ventured towards the WBO title.

markclitheroe · Feb 22, 2014

Azzer...said many times always enjoy your posts...arguments always well made.....but IMO Bowe avoided Lewis egged on by Newman to prolong the reign...
In answer to the original question...for the thread..my conclusive answer is Tyson (post Douglas).

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