Bigger win

Boudani and Rosenblatt were excellent wins over a prime Norris.

 

Yes they were But, I enjoyed Jackson, Brown and Mullings best !!

 

With all due respect, you're not even close!
Leonard fought a well past prime Marvin; they were supposed to fight two years earlier I think (correct me if I'm wrong) and didn't Ray leave Marvin at a press conference as a no show? Then waited another 18 months.
The Hagler-Leonard fight, as far as the huge hype leading up, doesn't even remotely compare to Ali-Frazier I.
And, one could argue in retrospect, Hearns was much less approaching peak when he fought Leonard the first time as Ray was.
NO tough call at all. atsch

 

I disagree.. For one thing BOTH men were past their primes, and not JUST Hagler which is a claim that seems to be the new trend these days. In addition Leonard was coming out of retirement just as Ali was when he met Frazier. So I think there are actually some congruencies in that comparison. As for it not even being close? I was around in 1987 and it was viewed as one of the greatest single victories of all time. And both Hearns and Leonard were prime in their first meeting. This **** about Hearns being green while Leonard had peaked, and Hagler being MORE washed up than Ray is starting to get old. LOL@ calling a guy who was undefeated 32-0 and a defending a world champion "as much less approaching peak. "

 

Yep.. Norris came in fully primed against Brown and got fully raped. Mullings beating Norris was epic as was resenblatt, Jackson and Bouduani.

 

I disagree with the statement about Hagler and Leonard's levels of being past it at that point. Hagler had more than 20 fights than Leonard did, was older, himself was fighting once a year at that point, and was far more shopworn which was demonstrated as early as the Roldan fight as he was getting hit with shots he would have easily avoided a few years before, and the fact that he'd fought a deeper list of tough fighters throughout his career than Leonard even though Leonard had the class welters on his resume. Case in point: Hagler's Philly wars early, Minter, Fully Obel, Sibson, Hamsho midway and Roldan and Mugabi late. Even after Leonard fought Hagler, he was still quality enough to draw with Tommy at Tommy's best weight of 154(although many felt Tommy won that one, it was pretty damn close either way), and ko the MUCH larger and bigger puncher(although mediocre outside of that) Don LaLonde. And rarely mentioned but just as important, Hagler's motivation was going into the tank which he admitted to as much to Leonard when Leonard gauged Hagler's mental state when he invited Hagler to the opening of his restaurant in Maryland. That was pure genius by the cunning Leonard and ended up being the final reason that he challenged Hagler when he did. According to the evidence, Hagler was most certainly farther past it than Leonard was at their respective points in their careers.

 

You can speculate all you want about who was more past it than the other, but at the end of the day it still works both ways. And Hagler telling Leonard that he had lost motivation for boxing sounds more like an excuse and quite frankly means little. If being in a multi million dollar super fight with another legend in a legacy building event wasn't enough to get Hagler interested, then that's not Ray's fault. Leonard was the one ascending in weight. Not Hagler. Leonard was the one who retired years earlier due to an injury. Not Hagler. Leonard was the one who hadn't fought in three years and had only seen one fight in five years.. Not Hagler. And as for age, we're talking about a mere two years difference, and not a number of great significance which to me would be more like 3-5. Your point about Hagler suffering more wear and tear warrants merit, but its hardly the only factor here.

 

Magoo, I never said it was Leonard's "fault" concerning Hagler's motivation for a multimillion dollar fight, but he was smart and cunning enough to challenge Hagler when he did. Simply question: even though he mentioned a possible fight several times over the years, when did Leonard actually challenge Hagler? Obviously, he wanted NOTHING to do with Hagler before that, even though he was the one teasing the public about such a fight for a very long time. And it's not a matter of Hagler not being "interested", as they did fight, didn't they? It's a matter of getting ready to retire because he knew he was physically and mentally finished with the sport, and was actually smart enough to retire after that one although he would have fought a Leonard rematch. I'm talking about when Leonard invited Hagler to the opening of his restaurant to gauge his state of mind,although Hagler thought Leonard was being his friend as Leonard mentioned that he was retired. Remember how surprised Hagler was when Leonard challenged him? I'm sure you do.Hagler told Leonard that he was contemplating retirement simply because he was exhausted with the sport and found it too diffucult mentally and physically to get up for it anymore. Means little? Hagler was mentally and physically done as he TOLD Leonard this before Leonard challenged him. If you don't believe me, you can read it in Marantz's book. We all know Leonard's inactivity before the Hagler fight,but if Leonard wasn't as far gone as Hagler, how did he manage to put on a good performance against close to prime Tommy at Tommy's best weight AFTER the Hagler fight? And Leonard comes out of retirement AFTER an injury to challenge one of the greatest middleweights of all time and you don't think he timed it perfectly? I have to give Leonard credit as, besides being a fantastic fighter, he was as brilliant and cunning as they come.

 

Utter nonsense. Leonard was sitting at ringside with his friend at the Hagler vs Mugabi fight ( while consuming alcohol ) and told his friend " I can beat Hagler." Weather it was because he thought Marvin had diminished enough for him or not doesn't change the fact that he was a retired fighter, close to haglers age, had sustained injuries in the ring and was not a natural middleweight.. Since your into referencing history you might want to also consider that for much of the 1980's, Leonard was using cocaine and had marital problems, possibly explaining why a match with Hagler didn't come off sooner. And calling Tommy Hearns anywhere near close to prime in 1989 is just absurd. It was well documented that Hearns struggled mightily to make the weight, which is precisely why they never had a third match, and had been KO'd by Iran Barkley the year before.. Leonard lost that fight in most people's eyes anyway. He went for much of his early career taking shots from Duran and Hearns without ever going down, but within the course of 6 months between 1988 to 1989 Leonard was decked twice by hearns and once by Lalonde clearly showing that his legs were diminished as were his reflexes.

CONCLUSION: Hagler and Leonard were BOTH past-it fighters by the time they met, and an honest person would argue that while Marvin had seen better days, there was no possible advantage going to Leonard.

 

Wish I had more time as this is a good one. Gotta go now, but be back later:good

 

No. No question Leonard was not peak anymore. Anyone with 2 eyes and a bit of sense could see that. But Hagler was as close to being physically and emotionally done with the sport as possible without being out of it, and literally told Leonard that at Lenny's restaurant. Leonard was gauging him when he invited him there. If Hagler had looked like the Hagler of old against Mugabi and told Leonard that he was still fresh and looking for new challenges while on his way to breaking Monzon's then record, Leonard would never have challenged him. For that matter, he never would have tried to gauge Hagler at that point in the 1st place. I love Leonard's line when he said at the fight that he was there to see Mugabi. Hilarious stuff. Leonard knew Hagler was just about through because he had seen Hagler's slowpoke reflexes against Mugabi, and more importantly, Hagler literally told him when he was gauging Marvin. That is undeniable. And no, it is not absurd to call Tommy anywhere near close to prime in 89. We know Barkley stopped him at 160, but that was a one off as Iran caught him. Barkley couldn't stop Tommy a couple of years later at 175, even though Iran was naturally the bigger man. Tommy was able to easily decision a decent, undefeated 175 champion in Virgil Hill a couple of years after that, too. Leonard didn't have another rematch because Tommy was having diffuculties making 154? Really? They couldn't have fought at 160, which was the limit when leonard fought Hagler, or even the 168 limit where Lenny fought LaLonde? Really? We all know that Leonard probably lost the Tommy rematch. I believe he was slightly outpointed. But leonard was still good enough to give Tommy (who was not far removed from his prime) a very close fight. As far as Leonard having marital problems and using cocaine, that's one big excuse. And we know Leonard didn't go down against Duran. But we do know that Leonard was staggered early by Duran(just for the record,my favorite fighter), who was a good, not great, puncher at 147. And, even though he had a very good chin,if you caught Leonard, he'd go down as Kevin Howard, no puncher in the Hearns or LaLonde realm, could attest. The fact is that Leonard wanted nothing to do with Hagler until Marvin was almost finished, as his reflexes were shot, and he was exhausted with the sport and getting ready to retire, which is literally what he told Leonard.

 

You nailed it Clinton!
And another point to consider, Marvin's rise to the title was a rather slow one. Born in 52, he was nearly 30 before he hit the 'big time'. He endured protracted wars in Philly and elsewhere in the mid to late 70's which, one would have to admit, will take a bit off the backside of your career. That fact alone IMO puts him up there with the ATG Middles.
Leonard (a great fighter, not taking anything away from him) was moved along after the Olympics cautiously. He never had to move thru the ranks in smoke filled arenas like Marvin did. There is simply NO arguement that Leonard was'nt more fresher when he FINALLY stepped into the ring with Hagler.
Hey Magoo? Yes, I was there in 87. Were you there in 71?
I've never experienced anything in my boxing loving lifetime like the buildup to the first Ali-Frazier. Left highschool that afternoon (I think it was a Tuesday nite?) and talked with friends for hours before the fight.
I wish you'de have been there Magoo. It was, quite simply, electrifiing before the bell rang that night!

 

Fight of the century was a huge boxing event, the biggest in my lifetime. Maybe the only one that rivaled it in international interest was Louis-Schmelling 2.