Would you say that Joe Louis improved after losing to Schmeling? or was it more of a case of Joe just taking him more seriously in the rematch combined with Max diminishing a little?
Probably a case of all those and more, such a radically different result, something had to have changed.
Agreed. Schmeling went from utterly humiliating Louis in the first fight to getting absolutely killed in the rematch and in such a short time. Apparently Jack Dempsey visited Louis's camp and spent a few afternoons working with him to counter act Schmeling. I believe joe also took him more seriously and knew that he'd be better off getting him out of there sooner than later. The rematch also didn't occur until some two or three years later, which might also have resulted in a more diminished Schmeling.
No....like many a bully he lost his aura when someone stood up to him..Ali loved a bully..he used their own personality against them...same with Foreman. Its why peak Ali would beat peak Tyson. Liston was a great fighter though..but Ali had more dimensions than any other heavyweight.
Fists,I agree with you agreeing Styles and skills,always make Ali the winner here... Liston is not getting a KO against Ali, and he sure as hell isn`t outpointing him either... Ali, all night long at any stage of their careers...
In what way was Liston a bully? I hear this repeated over and over and have never seen it explained. Is every fighter with a big punch a bully?
I think the bully thing comes from the attempts at intimidation..the quiet brooding bully type..the staredowns etc..the hype that goes alongside a noted puncher...scares the wits outta some fighters before the bell...ie Spinks v Tyson...or Patterson v Liston.....Ali had belief in himself .
I think the word bully gets tagged onto a guy with a scary reputation of beating the other other guy just by looking at him. It helps that he knocks people out too. Oh, and that he cashes in on the image with towels packed within the gown to look bigger long with the cross and Moody thing going on.
I am going to play devils advocate here. Ali was still on the learning curve when he met Liston for the first time. If Liston had got his act to gether an treated Ali with the appropriate respect, then who is to say that he wouldnt have turned the trick? At least it would have been worth a try!
On paper there is no reason why Liston should have lost to Ali, Sonny was coming off his best two wins whilst Ali had struggled with Jones and almost got his block knocked off by the much lighter Henry Cooper. Angelo Dundee knew something. What did he know? Did he have a hunch Liston was not as good as he appears and figure the short blow outs against westphal and Patterson had left Sonny unbelievably rusty? Or was he just rolling he dice for that Louisville cartel whom he was on a wage with rather than a percentage? Liston is a mystery. There was a window in 1960 where he was a major force who beat 3 rated fightes then inactivity from uncompetitive short fights (two at championship level) left Sonny an old, slow, alcoholic during a winning streak.
From all reports, Liston was lazy and didn't like to train. He also drank a lot. There is no doubt that he did not take Clay seriously. I think there is still a possibility the first fight was rigged. If it was there still might be a couple of old codgers around who know what happened.
personally I like liston more than ali but liston would never beat a prime ali.first fight was legit, the second, no chance !!!