Hello Pete. I have not read it cover to cover yet, instead focusing on the fights that caught my immediate interest .. If I come across it I will let you know ..
When Carpentier first joined Descamps school he was trained in "English boxing" which is what we know as boxing, "French Boxing" which was savate, and acrobatics. I recently picked up the book on George Lavigne and was dissappointed to read that Carpentier was a pupil at his school in Paris. This is not true. Carpentier was still living in Lens at the time and had not yet ever been to Paris (by his own admission).
I'm not a Carp apologist but I don't think its good research to buy into every non-American fight as a robbery against them, unless otherwise proved. That logic makes every European and Australian fighters loss in the USA suspect. IMO the British were the most unbiased of the lot, early 1900-20's (changed big-time now) Carp may have deserved the win V Jeannette or not but let us not dismiss the British press without decent rebuttal evidence. Ps and I'm Irish!
What exactly are you referring to? When I talk about his fights with Willie Lewis, etc Im speaking from first hand experience as someone who saw that fight. When I speak of his bout with Gibbons Im speaking from the standpoint of someone who has read tons of first hand sources and not a single one had him winning that fight. When I speak of the Gunboat Smith fight Im speaking from the point of view of someone who has read a ton of first hand sources and still more from people who watched the film. Etc etc. If thats not "good research" I dont know what is. Whats not good research is to take a few sources, which are disputed, and try to build a robbery against Carp in the Jeanette fight out of those. Close fights where sources disagreed as to the winner arent "robberies" and to try to second guess them is folly. The problem is that Carpentier for decades had a reputation, based more on his fame than his ability, as one of the greats. Its an odd characteristic of boxing fans that they have a hard time letting their established myths die. As such some have seized on this one fight, in light of all of the other evidence to the contrary, that Carpentier wasnt overrated. Nevermind that Jeanette was NEVER the best HW on the planet and was 35 years old, and past his prime when this fight took place... and Carpentier lost.
I never said I thought Carp robbed, I said where was the rebuttal evidence of the British reports? The closeness of the Jeannette fight only illustrates to that he was better than I used to rate him. Add that to the wins over Wells and the game efforts against Klaus and Papke as an eighteen year old and he deserves some kudos. I don't think him a great, I rank him behind Dillon and Levinsky etc and know well he was the Darling of Europe at the time but been overrated doesn't mean we cant rate him.
I dont think beating Wells proves ANYTHING. Wells was nothing and is possibly the most overrated fighter (by his own people) in history. What was Wells best win that elevates to him a level whereby beating him proves Carpentier was underrated? I fail to see how getting brutalized by Klaus and Papke proves this as well, unless you are one of those people who ranks gameness up there with ability. I dont. Gameness just means you take your beating like a man. Thats the best that can be said about Carpentier in those fights. For every pseudo impressive performance Carpentier had: beating a completely overrated glass jawed Wells, losing to Jeanette, getting smashed by Klaus and Papke, there are equally troubling performances. The Willie Lewis bout is as bad as it gets. Lewis was an old fat ex welterweight who had been knocked out easily and early by the best fighters he faced: 1903 Joe Tipman LKO2 1904 Langford LKO2 1906 Honey Mellody LKO3 1907 Honey Mellody LKO4 1910 Billy Papke LKO3 Stanley Ketchel LKO2 1911 Frank Klaus LKO6 1911 Mike Gibbons LKO2. Yet when he fought Carpentier he knocked him down at least three times in various rounds and completely outboxed him over the first half of the fight before his lack of condition caught up with him in the second half and Carpentier was able to come on. Still, Lewis deserved no worse than a draw. So how does a supposedly dynamite punching ATG not only allow a glass jawed, pudgy ex welterweight to go 20 rounds and get knocked out by him? Then there is the supposed master boxer getting completely owned by Tommy Gibbons. Or the Siki fight in which the unskilled wild swing slugger with little to no qualifications as a world title challenger other than being canon fodder for Carpentier was asked to lay down for Carp and sell it with four knockdowns. When Carpentier fought Townely, 7 of Townely's 13 losses came by knockout and yet there is Townely going down from punches that dont land. If Carpentier was so great why the need to prearrange his contests? Particularly against opponents who werent that good? Between the admitted fix, the alleged fixes, the curious fights and decisions in his favor, the guy doesnt qualify in my book.
You're debating with some imaginary poster. The highlighted bits in red are not my words or indeed views. Wells may well be overrated but that is immaterial to this debate. As a heavyweight he defeated Tom Kennedy, Porky Flynn and Colin Bell and a bunch of British level fighters, he wasn't great for sure but outside ten or so fighters the period lacked depth and Wells was in that next mix. A middleweight beating the best heavies in Europe, the display of grit against Klaus and Papke, wins over Gunboat and Levinsky, the close fight with Jeannette all add up to a decent resume e, I personally think he looks crap on film but I also think his career stacks up as respectable. I don't expect you to agree.
so you're using the Willie Lewis fight when Carpentier was barely 18 as some kind of evidence that Carpentier was not all that!?? Lewis may well have been, as you put it, an old fat ex welterweight... Do you even realise that 7 months previous Carp at fought weighing 146 himself?? He was a lad for Christ sake?? No props for a skinny young kid getting in to ring and fighting grown men of 28 who'd had 110 fight of experience (against the likes of Joe Gans & Sam Langford and Dixie Kid) then?? atsch And you say Lewis was glass jawed too?? So aside from Langford (in only Lewis' 11th), and dynamite punching Stan Ketchel & papke only 9 other men KO'd him in 126 fights.? And 2 of them came in the last two fight of the tail end of his career?? You have some very strange ideas :roll: PS you mockingly refer to Carpentier as "this supposed dynamite punching ATG" yet for instance if you wanna pick up from the Klaus & Papke defeats onwards Carpentier would register 31 wins before his career came to an end - of those only 2 would even make it to the final bell!? And those 2 were in 1913 also!? Of the said 29 KOs 20 came inside 3 rounds!? From 1913 til September 1926 all his wins came inside the distance? So are we saying that Carp wasn't a good puncher then?? For the record the only man to truly KO Carpentier during this period was Jack Dempsey (baring in mind Siki kicked Carp out of it and Tunney ended up misdirecting one south of the border rendering Carp unable to continue in the 15th and final round. Infact outside of a virtual count out when he was 15/16 Dempsey was in fact the only guy to really KO Carp outright
"You're debating with some imaginary poster. The highlighted bits in red are not my words or indeed views. Wells may well be overrated but that is immaterial to this debate. As a heavyweight he defeated Tom Kennedy, Porky Flynn and Colin Bell and a bunch of British level fighters, he wasn't great for sure but outside ten or so fighters the period lacked depth and Wells was in that next mix. A middleweight beating the best heavies in Europe, the display of grit against Klaus and Papke, wins over Gunboat and Levinsky, the close fight with Jeannette all add up to a decent resume e, I personally think he looks crap on film but I also think his career stacks up as respectable. I don't expect you to agree." You are right, I dont agree that wins over Tom Kennedy (who was nothing), Porky Flynn (who was nothing), or a very sick Colin Bell prove Wells was anything other than a regional level talent. Wells wasnt even the best HW in Britain during his career, much less Europe, much less the world. That says a lot. When exactly did Carpentier, as a middleweight, beat the best HWs in Europe? So we are now going to make up stats to suit our argument but you arent being an apologist? When Carpentier lost to Klaus and Papke his excuse was that he had outgrown the division and could no longer make weight. By the time he first fought Wells Carpentier was weighing in the high 160s (which would be his prime weight for most of the rest of his career) at the same time Wells was weighing in the high 180s to low 190s and had already been knocked out by Gunboat Smith and Gunner Moir two fighters who were smaller than he in both height, weight, and reach, illustrating that while Carpentier may have been at disadvantages in those stats they were not insurmountable. However, lets assume that Wells was the best HW in Europe by virtue of wins over guys like Iron Hague and Pat O'Keefe (a middleweight). Does that really speak volumes to Carpentier's greatness in beating him? I mean after all, of Wells eleven recorded losses all are stoppages and every one except one came before the completion of the sixth round. That doesnt really prove much to me. Now you want to bring up his "wins" against Levinsky and Smith? Really? Those are proof of his greatness to you? A fix and a fight he won by rolling around on the floor pretending he was hurt when even the referee admitted that the punch which may or may not have landed did no harm whatsoever? Look up reports on Carpentier and tell me how many times in his career he feigned injury to try to salvage a defeat. This time he was successful and it proves zilch to me. So thats my point, if you just look at boxrec stats (which is what historians have been doing for years without actually digging into the meat and potatoes of his career) then yeah, it looks respectable. When you actually dig into it you start to see that he was a product of hype and adoration. " so you're using the Willie Lewis fight when Carpentier was barely 18 as some kind of evidence that Carpentier was not all that!?? Lewis may well have been, as you put it, an old fat ex welterweight... Do you even realise that 7 months previous Carp at fought weighing 146 himself?? He was a lad for Christ sake?? No props for a skinny young kid getting in to ring and fighting grown men of 28 who'd had 110 fight of experience (against the likes of Joe Gans & Sam Langford and Dixie Kid) then?? And you say Lewis was glass jawed too?? So aside from Langford (in only Lewis' 11th), and dynamite punching Stan Ketchel & papke only 9 other men KO'd him in 126 fights.? And 2 of them came in the last two fight of the tail end of his career?? You have some very strange ideas." You really want to hash this out again after you got spanked left and right for lying on checkhook? Im still waiting for you describe the Lewis fight to me based on the film you said you had then got caught lying about it. You are going to try to educate me on Willie Lewis based on a quick look at Boxrec? Ive forgotten more about Willie Lewis than you will ever learn by your lazy ass idea of research ("Ho hum, im going to sit at my PC in my underwear eating cheetos and google Willie Lewis... Look mom Im a historian!") Fine: So let me get this straight. Carpentier can step into the ring with a faded, glass jawed warhorse at 18 on his home turf with friendly officials, get his ass handed to him and still win and somehow because hes eighteen we are supposed to forgive it? Oh well, he was just 18... Thats convenient. He didnt think 18 was too young to actually step into the ring so I dont want to hear it brought up as an excuse for him losing to the guys he fought then. If you step into the ring then leave a bull**** excuse like "I was too young" at the door or dont step into the ring. You cant have it both ways. But youve seen the Lewis fight right? I mean thats what you said? Why dont you describe the film to us in detail. Im on pins and needles for that one Rock. Ive only been waiting months for you to prove me wrong and prove that you werent lying. I'll be here waiting when you do. Here is the problem with pretending that Carpentier's age should make a difference: If we use that excuse before the war, and we say he was past his prime after (another laughable excuse Ive heard for him) then when exactly do find this block of time that his greatness was exhibited? Or do we simply say: "The guy never really proved himself on the world stage but he was too young and then too old, so we have to say that his wins over european journeyman qualify him as great." That seems like a rather bassackwards way to shoehorn him into Vallhalla IMO.
If you can't see that a certain amount of realistic-ness (if that's a word) needs to be used and an obvious consideration of how young Carpentier was in 1913 when considering that years fights on his subsequent legacy then you're plain $tup1d?? Bordering on embarrassing?? The fact that you flat out refuse to acknowledge this highlights just how blinded you are to even consider that Carp may actually have been a fairly decent fighter - you're not even worth debating with if you can't even consider something so common to take on board?? Consider for instance neither Ezz Charles or Sam Langford had even begun their careers at 18?? And maybe just perhaps may be there is the slightest outside chance that actually the World War 1 years may actually have been what would've been his best years?? Is this totally inconceivable?? Early 20's maybe? Could there be even the slightest belief that the years out May have also stunted his development even slightly?? Not a massive issue to me but just surprised that again something so reasonable you won't even show a glimmer of consideration to?? Funny that? No matter I will say that basically Carpentier's finest moment was undoubtably the million dollar gate vs Dempsey for the record but who knows how things would've panned out but for the war? PPS. Have a lot of unmarked discs to go through with a lot of fights on (and not a tremendous amount of time to go through them) but when I've put my hands on that Lewis match I will have another look ah it and you will be the first to hear from me - it's on a disc with (I think) the Grundhoven fight, the Marcel Nilles fight and a couple of others aswell but when I've got a minute will dig it out - for what it will matter though?? As I say how much does a fight at 18 years of age really override your entire career body of work??
First of all I haven't seen the footage of Carp-Smith but I have read several round-by-round reports. It's clear that Georges out-boxed Smith completely, out-punched him at times, floored him heavily for an eight count at the end of the fourth with the bell, perhaps, saving the American. When he fell and was hit by Smith(lightly it would appear) he did act up and this doesn't reflect well on his character. But we are not debating his character here but his boxing ability and to be out-classing one of the top heavyweight in the World at that time is no mean feat.
Jack Renault, Gunboat Smith, Tom McMahon, Jim Barry, Sandy Ferguson, Jack Twin Sullivan, Colin Bell, Battling Jim Johnson were just some of the fighters Flynn beat in his career. Kennedy beat Moran and Palzar. If Flynn and Kennedy wern't much then pretty well the whole period of heavyweights, except for the fab four-wasn't much either. (a not unreasonable view IMO). "Those are proof of his greatness to you?" I'm not claiming greatness for Carpentier at all, you are still misreading me. As far as Boxrec goes it shows the losses to Klaus, Papke and Jeannette and the foul win over Smith, it's after reading up on these contests that he gets more credit for the circumstances behind the results.
On film Carpentier has problems with pressure fighters that do not respect his power. I have heard there is footage of Battling Ski kicking Carpentier when he is down, but it has been edited out of most film versions available today.