Greats of the past vs bigger modern fighters

I find it really hard to compare eras, but I agree a fighter must have a record of beating big heavyweights to be given a chance against today's giants.

Joe Louis, Joe Frazier and Jack Dempsey would all qualify, but you might say the big guys they beat weren't as good as the Klitschko's or Lewis. At least they beat genuinely big men, though, so their power would give them a realistic chance. I agree that you can't say size isn't a factor; it definitely is. I think it can be overcome occasionally by truly outstanding fighters, though.

 

I can't see guys like Dempsey, Marciano and I even have trouble picturing Louis being able to beat the much bigger guys like the Klitschko's and Lennox Lewis. I think the Klitschko's and Lewis not only have size advantage but a skill advantage over Marciano and Dempsey. Joe Louis now had probably most outstanding combination punching I've ever seen and excellent timing which may make it possible for him to get to some of the modern giants but I still wouldn't favor him against the Klitschko's and certainly not against Lennox Lewis.

 

Most folks are being reasonable when honestly trying to weigh how much...weight & muscle is an advantage in what context, what may be lost in speed & endurance, & what size gap-assuming nearly equal skills-might be too much to make up. I can see a case on either side, though the extremes of it never makes a difference or it is always the determinant are not tenable conclusions.

One way you can tell an extremist attached to a preconceived agenda is not LISTENING to what another says, even if clearly & politely repeated, & projecting that extremism they have...onto you.

To clean up some irrational & sometimes nasty posts here:

1) Foxy, you quoted my post yet avoided every point EXCEPT the reach of the K-brothers. So you hang who is logical upon whether I was correct on one point about wingspan? Not a meaningful rebuttal to establish that. Several more things wrong with your case...

1 a) You assume an agenda instead of an honest difference of opinion. Meaning you assume others do what YOU do.

1 b) You describe ABC news as sensationalistic & biased-why in general & why in THIS case? How would reducing their reaches POSSIBLY add to excitement or drama? If anything making them seem bigger would be consistent with Giant/Giant-killer stories.

1 c) You are utterly & completely mistaken-assuming you are being honest, care & pay attention to the truth-that their reach being 84"-86" is "generally accepted". The initial claim I corrected said 86".

I searched many web sites & tale of the tapes: they ALL seem to say 80" & 81", save for a link where Wlad was listed as 79" here on ESB & 78" by the LA Times! I have seen their reaches listed forever, & NEVER more than 80" & 81". While measurements can be inaccurate, I challenge you to even FIND ANYWHERE that their reach is listed as 84"-86", let alone this is the consensus! You are totally wrong here; what even caused you to believe this?
Do you care about being accurate, or were you just making things up?

Here is one of innumerable sources where their reaches are listed. I could copy & paste them all day. SHOW me where 84"-86" is even CLAIMED. SHould be extremely easy if it was commonly believed. The opposite is true, on the Inter-webs where you can find mistaken & exaggerated ideas everywhere, we cannot even FIND that belief!
[url]http://athletesanderas.blogspot.com/2011/12/klitschko-vs-klitschko-tale-of-tape.html[/url]

2) Hamburgerrrrrr...You have some self-awareness-you admitted being the biggest douche on the forum (except for a new competitor). Is this the way you want to live, a sometimes vicious bottom-feeder? Notice I am describing BEHAVIOR, not calling you names. If I suggested you leave the forum, this would be kosher 'cause you are often abusive. Yet I showed restraint & try to nudge you towards decency. Yet for no reason you suggest I leave the forum. It does not bother me one bit, but you should be called on being gratuitously nasty.

3) Your cases about Moore & Moorer are interesting due to coincidentally similar names. But they do not apply to the argument at hand. All I said was Moore was not very bulked up (by lifting or PEDs) at 188! Sure, he was MW for years: since he took advantage of staying lean & tall for that division. He had the skeleton to not be Tommy Hearns-lean-when they gained weight it was natural, 'cause they had the height & bone structure. Moorer was not bigger than Ali, he was about the same, & used weight training to roughly maximize his natural muscular potential...


4) You have shown zero evidence of differentiating WHO I believe Marciano would beat. You do not pay attention to the specifics of what many say, you stereotype them into the OPPOSITE extreme opinion that you have. Pure projection, that is NOT dedication to fairness & the truth.

4 a) For the record, I believe Rocky would only have a decent chance against Bowe (he could be hit easily, fought inside) & maybe one K-brother.

This lack of commitment to intellectual honesty about what folks SAY is, in a small but tangible way at least, living in your head. i.e., living in a fantasy world. Not about speculative matters, but about FACTS including what others actually SAY & believe.

5) Who did Loe Louis ever duck, including your claim he dodged black fighters? Who & when? He sometimes CARRIED white fighters for longer than necessary due to racism. We are waiting for names.

Oh, & he struggles with Charles & Walcott due to being well past his prime. And they were very good fighters. Name the black fighters on their level, with their track record (or of Archie Moore) who he possibly avoided?

6) It is not as black & white as whether a guy tipped over 200 lbs. or not naturally. It DOES make a difference, but is not everything Frazier would also suffer due to his size against a few ATG sluggers. And a sub 200 ATG boxer MIGHT beat a great large slugger. Styles make fights.

7) The glove situation I do not blame you for bringing up. It is just that it has been shown that counter-intuitively-when studied scient-terrifically (sic)-glove weight seems to have minimal impact of blow force.

 

And your modern sized heavies were not fighting in the past with less musculature and modern training. And Rocky, and Tunney, didn't enter prime in the 90's-2000's.
In 1923 Lewis/Klit would have been lighter and prone to the style of that era. In 2000 Dempsey would have been 15-20 pounds heavier and with modern training been a whirling dervish wrecking machine.
Stop comparing eras, get outta here!

 

:goodI agree on not putting Dempsey and Marciano in the same bracket as Louis.

 

furberger is entitled to his own opinion, he's not entitled to his own facts. Corrie Sanders weighed only 225 when he defeated Wlad.

 

Lennox Lewis was 227 when he destroyed Razor Ruddock. His lowest professional weight was 224, twice.

He was at his then-career heaviest when he lost to McCall (238), and when he lost to Rahman (253.5), and finally when he struggled to defeat Vitali (256.5). In those instances, that extra weight didn't help Lennox.

 

Joe Louis was averaging 4 title fights a year before WWII came along and robbed him of his late prime (28-32). Fighting at the same pace, barring loss or major injury, that's another 16 title defenses, 41 instead of 25...

 

Hm, it is a good question IF Lewis was a better or worse fighter in part DUE to the extra muscle-& sometimes fat.

Now while heavier when he had those 2 stoppages, it seemed complacency lack of training (including at altitude), & he was a little overweight in the mid 250's, + he was old vs. Vitali. Now he SEEMED better due to Steward's training. The question is:

Was the extra muscle itself-where he was at mid 240's without being overweight at all vs. mid 220's-in itself a BENEFIT to him, or for the more well rounded, jab heavy fighting tall style he adopted?

Because at 6' 5" & mid 220's, that was bigger even accounting for height than many old HWs, but about the same/in proportion to guys like Frazier, Chuvalo, Ali, Liston...

So the question is, how much muscle is ideal? And how much does it depend upon the style & asstes of a fighter?

IF you could have Lewis for his whole career, train him for the greatest success in his era: would you have him in the mid 220's or mid 240's when he gained much muscle?

In an 15 round era & against smaller men you might decide differently.

 

Good point Entaowed. In today's 12 round era, heavyweights aren't as penalized for carrying around extra weight as they might've been with 15 round fights. Lennox Lewis looked very intimidating bulked up in the 240lb range but he was more dynamic as a lighter fighter. I think too much emphasis is put on weight today as being the deciding factor in a fight. Many of the old time fighters were very strong men regardless of thier weight. I watched Louis vs Carnera and was surprised how Joe was able to spin the much heavier and muscular Primo in the clinches. Or how Ali was able to handle big George in close in Zaire. Weight is one of many fators that play into making a good fighter. It can certainly help but it can also hurt. Just my 2 cents.

 

Pernell could knock out the Klits ???

Did I read that correctly ?

Corrie Sanders knocked out Vlad and thus Sweet Pea could?

Unless your joking I don't understand how you could think that.

Was Sweet Pea a better boxer than the Klits ? Sweet Pea sure was, he was one of the best ever in ability. Unreal. However, SIZE advantage is so IMPORTART that even though Pernell was a far better boxer than other champions at WW/JM/M/SM/LHW he still didn't go after these higher weight boxers and why? Because of the SIZE difference correct ??

Look at Floyd ? He is the BEST BOXER pound for pound without question. He has moved well above Lightweight and he has done AMAZING at higher weights. However, were talking a 20lbs increase only and that is the BEST boxer in the world??? I don't think that Floyd would be able to BEAT the best LHW's in the world let alone the HW's. I think Floyd could be competitive at LHW, however, I think the size and power difference would stop him from dominating the top guys with his superior boxing ability.