Leotis Martin's KO over Liston. How much does it make you question Liston's chin?

Not much realy.

Liston was prety ready to be taken by then.

 

If you watch the minute or so leading up to the KO, Liston was looking ragged. He wasn't shooing the right hand, he was waving it and from too far away. In other words, begging to get countered with a right hand. You get hit like that, you go. You turn right into it like that, you go.

 

sonny was an old man !!

 

Liston was the kind of talent where he was simply too good for one class of fighter and a bit too under prepared for the better class of fighters if it became a long hard fight. Sonny was good enough to win at that level, he just needed more recent experience for those situations than his career ever allowed him to. A long distance fight with machen in preparation for Clay would have stood Sonny better than the Patterson blow outs. Wepner before Martin would have been better prep too.

Against Leotis, Liston took a good hard shot that landed corectly when he was tired and exhausted. All fighters get knocked out if they have fought their heart out and get clipped when they are running on empty. He was in the trenches for the first time in years. The circumstance of taking that shot proved sonny was just like anyone else. He had been fighting a good fight but it had been many years since liston had a competative fight. Sonny was blowing hard, age told, liston kept on going until he got caught.

 

Zora Foley could hit.
Eddie Machen could hit.
Nino Valdez could hit.
Obviously Cleveland Williams could hit ...

Sonny was north of 35 against Ali in 64 .. he was over forty easy by the time of the Martin fight, not in any sort of serious condition, drinking way too hard and came up against a young, talented fighter who could also hit ..

Liston had a terrific chin. The Ali dive in Maine taints him and justifiably so ..

 

Actually, Mike DeJohn was a huge puncher, probably the hardest-hitting outside of Liston and Williams. George Chuvalo named DeJohn and George Foreman as the two hardest hitting heavyweights he ever faced, if memory serves.

Sonny took DeJohn's cannons and stopped him.

 

Machen was injured so he wasnt able to hit against Liston.
Foley had a sneaky right hand but he was so damn tentative that if you look at his record he has maybe one or two KOs over top ten heavyweights.
Valdez was shot when he fought Liston. He was done.

Liston was no older than 33 when he fought Ali. Thats been pretty well established now. He was 39 when he fought Martin (which is still damn old for a HW, especially in that era).

All of that being said I think Sonny had a good enough chin. I think the real problem was the mental aspect of it. When he started getting clipped by Martin and his nose started bleeding he stopped looking like the big bad bear and started looking like a bully on the school yard who has finally met someone that stands up to him. He looked like a frightened child. He stopped punching with authority and started pawing and trying to anticipate what was going to happen, not what he was going to do to the other guy. He lost the fight at that point as far as Im concerned. The knockout was just a matter of time and didnt have as much to do with his chin as with the fact that he fell apart. When you fall apart mentally like that its over, you lose the ability to adequately defend yourself and when you get hit like that you are going to sleep.

Martin has become kind of a curiosity and a bit overrated today based on this win (over a 39 year old) and the "what ifs" that sorround his career had he not suffered that eye injury. The guy could punch, theres no doubt about that, but just having power isnt the only thing. You need to be able to deliver that power and Martin couldnt always do that. If you look at his record Liston is his best win and Liston hadnt really done anything noteworthy in 4 and a half years outside of his win over fringe contender Henry Clark. The guy was treading water career wise and even Martin wasnt a step up from that class of opponent. Martin is an interesting guy to study up on and watch but his win over Liston was a lot more about youth vs experience than Martin being "that good." Put the best version of Martin in against a Liston even just a couple of years younger and I think you see a different result.

 

I remember Foreman was interviewed on his talking to Sonny after the Martin loss and George was abit stunned to see Sonny crying, before this Liston had always told George nothing bothered him and now George saw this was a lie. Sonny told George he had been ill with the flu but didn't want to turn the bout down and that as the fight went on it just caught up with him and left him in a weakened state.

 

It doesn`t make me question his chin too much. He was an old fighter who was also worn down by years of hard living.

Liston had one of the better chins out of all the heavyweight champions.

 

Years of hard living? I hate it when this comes up. Years of less competative fights I can accept. Liston was a good pro. Yes he liked to party between fights but I don't think there is much evidence of chaotic training camps or turning up out of shape. Liston was as a good gym fighter in camp.

 

Liston WAS HIT WITH A GOOD SERIES OF PUNCHES so I dont question his chin. Martin had lost to Ellis and Bonavena among others but had some good wins as well. I think the most important factor here is that Martin got off the floor and came on strong vs Liston and would not be discouraged and got the KO....Liston was past his best but still competitive but people underestimate the importance of heart and Leotis showed it and for an ordinary fighter got the best win of his career because he did not give up

 

Liston was the kind of talent where he was simply too good for one class of fighter and a bit too under prepared for the better class of fighters if it became a long hard fight. Sonny was not used to sucking it up in the trenches.