Leotis Martin's KO over Liston. How much does it make you question Liston's chin?

Agree totally.:good

 

I'm not questioning weather or not he had a drinking problem. He might very well have had one, and if he did then it certainly would have effected him as it would have anyone. But my point is that he was washed up anyway, with or without the help of booze, drugs, whatever...

 

Liston looked good, effective but slower against a lower level of opponent so he was about ripe like you say. The fact is Martin was a good fighter, especially compared to what level Liston was forced to fight at. Sonny had become a "who needs him" character . Old but dangerous. So nobody with a rating was exactly chomping at the bit to fight him. There was easier ways to break into the world level clique than taking on Sonny.

Whilst Sonny was still a winner, against a current fighter there clearly was already a lot of miles on his clock even without drink.

Sure Liston liked a drink by that time, it is well documented. But even without drink or without being old Leotis would have been a handfull on that form for most heavyweights breaking into world class. Liston actually did well under the circumstances for a late 30 something heavyweight in the late 1960s.

Martin was familiar with Sonny, they had already sparred. He had a hunch no doubt that Sonny could not last forever. After a good look at Sonny Martin was well placed to know how much of a risk Sonny was at that time.

 

Sounds plausible.

 

I think the word "alcoholic" gets thrown around too freely when often it is just describing someone who likes to get drunk socially or has the beginnings of a drink problem.

Yes, I agree whole heartedly that this kind of behaviour does effect a sporting career but there is a sliding scale to what damage it does and what degree the alcohol use is abused. In boxing it would depend on how hard the drinker is matched. If he is matched within his own level it is bound to take effect quite quickly.

I think it is misleading to describe an active sportsman as a full blown alcoholic because it conjurs up images of the civilian alcoholic who shakes so much he can't shave himself, walks with a stick, smells of urine and can be unpredictable in social situations.

Whilst it is almost impossible to define at what level of alcoholism somebody is at I think others would agree that this broad use of the word is unhelpful.

Certainly I think an alcoholic who holds himself prety much together and is successfully knocking out decent fringe names like Henry Clark and scrap iron johnson in his late 30s is far from being anywhere near the above conjured up stereotype alcoholic.

Why should you be so determined Sonny was an alcoholic in 1963-69? I don't think boxing people actually used that word to describe him during his career. Just writers. Foreman said Sonny drank, did he say alcoholic? Is everyone who gets drunk and goes on a bender from time to time an alcoholic?

 

An alcoholic by definition is basically someone who can't say "no" to a drink, especially once a drink is already taken. I think there are many degrees of alcoholism and an individual doesn't necessarily have to live up to the image of a broken down bum living under a bridge with **** stained trousers to qualify as one. In fact, few alcoholics fit such a description. I've known people who were by their own admission alcoholics yet were presidents of companies and seemed to function well in their day to day lives, while others ended up being institutionalized.

 

Questioning Liston's chin because, as an aging fighter he was ko'd after becoming gassed trying to take out a younger hard hitting , very good fighter, makes about as much sense as questioning Randy Cobb's because he was stopped in one round by journeyman Dee Collier when well past his best.
I saw Martin stop Thad Spencer in London a year earlier, it was voted the Fight Of The Year and thoroughly deserved it.

 

Yes I am aware of all of this. However, there is a difference between the physical expectations of presidents of companies and the training regime of a highly successful proffesional fighter albeit a veteran one.

Whilst I am coming round to the idea of an alcoholic being someone who simply can't say no to a drink I can't help thinking that the far extreme also exists too in the minds of the masses. I have every sympathy with genuine alcoholics and those who live with problems and are unable to run and train like boxers because of the damage the disease has done to them. In no way would I want to offend them.

Up until the Martin fight Archie Moore reckoned Liston was in prety good shape under Dick Saddler. He said Liston was getting better with each fight and still would be too strong for either Frazier or Ellis but that neither would want anything to do with him. So this is good evidence Liston was still in good condition when he wasn't drinking. He said conditioning was key. There are also other evidence that Sonny did drink, was already a drinker. Even so Sonny was still winning genuine fights in some style as some fighters have done. He just had not met any current rated fighters who were prepared to go to fight him since losing to Ali.

I can't prove Liston had a good camp against Martin but I do think things caught up with Liston because he was getting old and he was stepping up. Martin was a good handfull at that time. A better fighter than he fought in a long time. Sonny looked good until he gassed. There was no shame in the way he lost.

 

Associated Press, July 20, 1960:
Sonny Liston, swinging his sledgehammer fists with devastating fury, knocked out Zora Folley in 28 seconds of the third round after battering him to the canvas twice in the second round of their scheduled 12-round heavyweight fight last night. Liston, 212½-pound slugger from Philadelphia, gave ground in the first round before he unleashed his dynamite-laden 14-inch fists that slammed Folley to the deck early in the second round and again as the round ended. Folley, 198½, of Chandler, Ariz., took nine counts on both knockdowns, the bell ending the second round saving him from the cold, calculating attack that finished him in the third stanza.
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with a two-fisted attack that forced the Philadelphian to give ground before he unleashed another of his bone-crushing left hooks and right-hand smashes that sent Folley crashing to the canvas on his face. Folley was struggling to his feet when the bell saved him. Handlers worked over him frantically in the corner but the effort was futile. The Arizonan danced out as they started the third only to be caught flush on the jaw by another terrific blow. The Philadelphian set up Folley with a right cross and then decked him with a fabulous left hook—a blow that has held his last nine opponents for the 10 count.