Prime Joe Frazier vs. Vitali Klitschko

Accusing me of that sounds like you're looking for a way out to me.

 

Not at all. I have yet to read something that makes me feel at a loss for words, and when you finally DO produce something I'll back away gracefully. But from the sound of things you're just making references to performances that you haven't seen or know anything about. Hell you even used the words " his record doesn't permit it."

 

It doesn't and I used that line before giving an analytical reasoning to why it doesn't but you just here accusing me of not watching fights. You have derailed the debate into childlessness.
Ive seen near every Wlad fight so you best pull your socks up or go home.

 

I'm not so sure he needs to read that far into the paper; seeing the name "klitschko" in the title usually does the trick.

 

You've seen nearly all of his 64 fights

I doubt it. And the references you made to other fights in this thread clearly shows you haven't seen them either. Childishness? Get a life.

 

So what the foolish dinovelvet actually wants is a matchup between prime Joe F, and a 38 - 41 yr old Vitali.

I suppose that works in his feeble mind.

Frazier was nothing like the evasive, counter punching Byrd. He walked forward to be hit. His philosophy of you hit me 3 or 4 times, and i'll hit you harder once, would make Vitali believe all his christmases had come at the same time.

 

Yeah I didn't even think about that one.. He assumes that the comeback version of VK is the prime one... Epic...

 

Oscar "Ringo" Bonavena was not 190 lbs. Look up his weight, it is listed nearly everywhere as 218 lbs. Every bit as much as prime Tyson, slightly taller & lighter than what prime Tua was.

The sheer size differential-when battling skilled top level boxers-might be too much to overcome. The taking of punches to get inside...Against a defensive minded huge man who hits very hard with a great jab...Though my heart would be with Joe.

 

Vitali is a good fighter but he isn`t stopping Frazier IMO. VK is big and he had some skills but he doesn`t hit anything like a prime George Foreman nor does he have the same killer mentality. Who did?

Every big heavyweight Frazier is matched up with is gonna do what Foreman did and its borderline comedy. Joe had a damn good chin and great heart and stamina. He could be knocked down sure but stopping him would be a tall order.

On the other hand I don`t necessarily see Frazier knocking out Vitali either. He is pretty damn tough himself and seems to take a good shot. I think it`s a tough long fight and both guys would be busted up some. Comes down to heart and conditioning. Frazier set such a torrid pace for a heavyweight and that might be the difference.

Joe had a terrific workrate and he built the tempo as fight went longer. Joe Frazier was a force of nature in his prime and he woud be a handful to hold off for just about any heavyweight.

 

Vitali would hurt Frazier over time. Horrid match up for smoking joe. Maybe not the Chisora fight, but Vitali had gone down before Chisora. So prime for prime Vitali's height is just way too much for Frazier. Joe would find it hard to chuck combo's at such a tall rangy guy just like all shorter fighters do. Vitali would take advantage of Joe's difficulty landing good solid shots without taking way too much damage. The clinches Joe would find exhausting or he would be manhandled out of position. While all this is going Joe would keep being hit with shots that he felt he could shrug off but then started to realize that was a bigger mistake than he kept chancing. I see Joe realizing that Vitali is mentally and physically prepared to go the distance if that's what it takes and I see Joe maybe making it the distance but getting beat up maybe knocked down once or twice early or late. Thus really not so much a claim of how Vitali being better, a claim of Vitali's size being too difficult to overcome. Don't forget, in Joe's day HW that were 6.8 had spine and knee problems and would often move like tree sloths. Vitali is not super fast but he is fast, big and strong which makes for all kinds of problems guys like Frazier never encountered before.

 

Frazier in his signature fights is 1-4.............no BS Ali Vietnam and is would be 0-5.....

VK took Lewis best uppercut blind .......Frazier would have woken up in the hospital.

Vk has never been down or real hurt and never ever even as a old man ko'ed.

Frazier ain't ko'ing VK . Fact

Even one gets ko'ed it is Frazier.

VK will punch him into submission.........and straightforward guy coming right at him....tailermade for VK.

Against WK...... he will never ever get past the jab and if WK commits to a big right it is game over, hell, even his hook of the jab would get the job done.

There is nothing in his arsenal that would give Frazier a shot, a short, chinney one armed fighter who likes to take five to deliver one....

It is clear as a pristine mountain lake that none of you fools have ever boxed or been in a pro sparring camp..............a skilled elite 6 foot 5 and up boxer with a good jab which both K brothers have, has a roughly 5-6 feet "killzone" where they batter you with the jab/Right/Cross /Hook over and over and over again, rinse and repeat.while you come in..........that is the ultimate nightmare for a limited small short fighter.

There is only ONE short modern Heavyweight who did exceptional well against tall, mobile powerhouses and once he lost focus being on his best form he started losing not against similar sized guys but the guys I mentioned above.

End thread.

 

This language & description of Frazier, especially the "fact" conceit which is literally wrong (because you are indisputably coicing an opinion, & the tone comes across as arrogant & puerile like the censorious "end of thread". This sounds like an alter ego of an infamous poster several times banned & resurrected under a new nom de plume. Or just derivative of him, though some of the language is identical. Anyway a poor role model to follow.

Are you really so limited that you believe that ALL who disagree with you must be as your insulting presumption states: "It is clear as a pristine mountain lake that none of you fools have ever boxed or been in a pro sparring camp".

You must have never talked to any boxers or those in a pro sparring camp to not know that MANY would favor a past ATG slugger, boxer or swarmer certainly over a great modern SHW. It is absurd not to know this. Now whether they would be RIGHT or not is another question & could depend upon individual matchups.

Still as I expressed above you may be well be right about the end result of Vitali vs. Joe.

But significant bias is expressed when defininf Frazier just by his only losses, those "signature fights". Cherry-picking facts & giving no context & omitting any virtues.

When (both were) past prime he lost 2 of 3 to Ali, commonly called the greatest ever. And the second fight Ali got away with a crazy amount of illegal clinching/graccing & pulling. Then only Foreman beat him twice, but he was both another ATG, a slugger-bad match up for a swarmer, AND Foreman was at then closer to his prime, when Joe was past it.

 

LOl, I have been here since when I signed up in 08.........so what "Alt" am I Sherlock ?

 

It is really very hard to make a case for Joe, other than nostalgic revisionism. Even when he won fights he'd end up with a face like a bag of golf balls, and the guys that were hitting him, didn't have anything like the size and power of Vitali. His famous " work rate " doesn't even come into play with a guy who throws ( and lands ) as many punches as Vitali does. There is just no way for Joe to win this fight.

As for the other brother I'd say that was a pick em fight. On the one hand I can see W picking, poking, and clinching his way to an incredibly boring UD, but if he found the balls to commit and throw that right hand regularly, he has power in that shot that Foreman could only dream of. He could very well be the first man to put Joe to sleep, and easily lift him of his feet a la Foreman.

Personally I wouldn't watch a fight between those 2 if Joe were around today, unless I later saw the result as a KO win for one or the other of them, then I'd track the fight down on the net.

 

I want to see this war. I don't think Vitali hits hard enough to pull a Foreman and I don't think Frazier is going to cut up Vitali.

Vitali is going to volume punch and Frazier is going avoid many of them with his movement but he's still going to get tagged and rocked. Vitali just throws so much and is so unpredictable with his angles and combinations.

Vitali will likely avoid the left hook with his height and awkward movmement, but he always did a poor job of defending his body where Frazier will dig again and again. Frazier will make him pay everytime he gets lazy with his left hand. That pawing stuff wont' work with Joe as Ali found out.

I'm on the fence. I could see a late stoppage for either man, Vitali could possibly edge a decision as he's likely going to get off the most punches, but Frazier's body work could also rack up some points.