"If you retire undefeated it means you didn't fight everyone you were supposed to"

even when Froch was a World champ he was barely recognized. so you're the one talking garbage here, not me.
Degale was known to the wider audience because of the Olympics, so by beating him alone, it made Groves more known to the wider public. even non Boxing fans knew who he was.

the point i was making was that Kirkland and Lewis had genuine reasons for the losses. so stick with the point. Lewis when in shape and ready, beat the hell out of Rahman. it's seriously stupid to argue on a win for a fighter based on these situations arising.

the not sparring and having brittle hands were long term for Joe, so this wasn't out of the usual for him. he beat everyone under those conditions, so it wouldn't all of a sudden be an advantage for Carl.

i'm sure Joe would have loved to have had Johnson on his resume over some of the fighters there. but timing has to be considered in all of this. the same goes for every fighter that's ever set foot inside a ring. if the timing is out of sync, then it's all pie in the sky.

same goes for Ottke, Beyer and Lucas. although money was the deciding factor for Lucas and Beyer. they priced themselves out. not because they thought they were worth it, but because they needed an excuse to not fight Joe because they knew they couldn't win. Ottke just flat out refused. no money was ever discussed in that one.

i wasn't saying that Wa55en makes more money on any one fighter in particular, just in general. look how much Joe earned after beating Lacy. it was much more money. HBO signed him up allowing for the bigger fights to happen because there was more money to negotiate with. and even when they weren't big fights like when he fought Manfredo, he got payed more money.

Bute got payed well to fight Froch over in the UK. maybe not as much had the fight been in front of his home crowd, but he got payed. Joe on the other hand took a big pay cut to get the Lacy fight. he didn't earn that much more than he did for a routine defence. so you've got it the wrong way round there.

Joe traveled when ever it made sense to do so, just like any fighter. if not, then break it down why he was willing to fight others abroad but not Ottke in Germany? you seem to think you have all the answers to this one. the fact that Sven's team came out publicly to say they weren't interested isn't going to be accepted by you, so you tell me your version.

Calzaghe would have got involved in a Super Six if all the best fighters at the weight were involved because it would have allowed him to get the fights he was always after. nothing exists to argue otherwise.

how the hell can you go to Germany to fight Ottke if he wasn't willing to get in the ring? use ****ing magic beans?
why don't you go and buy a multi million pound mansion out of thin air if you think it's as simple as that. not having the money is no excuse. well, you won't allow common sense to prevail where Calzaghe is concerned, so why should i allow it where you're concerned? get me a Gold bar while you're at it.

 

Let me just take a break from work... What I'm saying with Kirkland and Lewis, for example (could have picked many others) is just because everyone thinks they'd easily beat Ishida and Rahman, doesn't mean they did. You can never predict when a fighter will have a new problem, which is why I don't think it's fair just to dismiss Froch v Calzaghe by saying "easy win for Joe". Either they should have fought, because they overlapped, or you can't just dismiss Froch (who fought the best available) and Calzaghe who you surely must admit has not fought the best available in comparison to Froch.

I think its unfathomable to say that Groves was a bigger name than Froch before their first fight. Remember Froch was on SKY for a run of Johnson, Ward, Bute (big hype), Mack and Kessler II (full hype machine) at 02 Arena, while Groves was on BoxNation just 2 fights earlier. At the time of Degale fight you could make a case during that period - but not for when Groves fought Froch.

I also cannot agree that Calzaghe would have joined the Super 6 because I know W'arren would not have had it. Business wise I dunno if it even made sense to join Super 6, but the fighters put their balls on the line. Why should Kessler defend his WBA to Ward in Oakland? Why should Abraham leave Berlin to fight Dirrell in Michigan? Why should Froch defend his WBC to Kessler in Herning, Denmark or fight Abraham in Finland or Johnson in AC - does the risk/reward favour doing that or easier defenses in front of full houses in Nottingham? You say Calzaghe went abroad when it made sense - the super 6 fighters went abroad not only when it made absolute business sense it seems.

My opinion is just that W'arren held him back by stopping some fights happening because other fighters "priced themselves out". Remember at the same time he had the Hatton WBU years which was a very similar story. I know Hatton really wanted the big fights and after Tszyu only got them by leaving W'arren because he didn't want any more easy defenses.

To be honest I can't remember all the too and fro with Ottke - if he actually said that even if Calzaghe comes to Germany for whatever money they would not fight, than fair enough, but I'm not sure that's the case - I guess they both didn't need each other to make money, like Jones and DM, but I don't think a Kessler or Froch would have stood on the side-lines like that.

 

In 1955, somehow journeyman Nino Valdes became n.1 contender with an 11-fight winning streak (against 10 bums plus Ezzard Charles who took him lightly and lost a close decision).

Marciano, ready to retire because of back problems, wanted Nino Valdes to be his 49th and final fight, because he and his handlers saw Valdes as a stationary target who would be easy to knock out (Valdes had already been knocked out by 2 bums with losing records).

Instead, Valdes was first lured into a fight by Archie Moore, who wanted to fight Marciano. Moore of course easily schooled Valdes, and so became the top contender. Marciano didn't want to fight anymore, so Moore started calling Marciano a coward in the newspapers for wanting to retire instead of fight him. Marciano was forced into one more fight, with Moore.

Valdes retired at age 35 with a record of 48-18. Not a duck.

 

Marciano was no ducker, though you may argue that watching Sonny LIston destroy Floyd convinced him not to return to the gym for his proposed comeback. Liston must have scared the **** out of him (though they were about the same age, so it would have been a fair fight in age terms).

Marciano simply got lucky, he had noone major to deal with in his few years as champ.

 

no way Joe is entering the supersix, facing top level opps consistently is not the Calzaghe way, its more fight 9 weaklings and one good.

 

He would have been a much tougher fight for Joe at 175 than Roy was, It would have been a war.

 

Not at all. I never liked Froch, still don't. He's pretty much saying if you are better than EVERYONE else, then you should fight on until you lose.

Stupid analogy from a stupid fighter.

He is exciting to watch, I will give him that. But he's an assclown.

 

Yeah, but if you look closely, the older guys Marcian fought were still winning almost all of their fights. They were older but still very good. It's not like Moore, Walcott, or even Louis were riding losing streaks. They weren't.

 

:good

 

Joe Calzaghe can be satisfied. As for Floyd, in my eyes both pac & mayweather will go down as the fighters who never fought each other instead of what they actually accomplished

 

it looks as though work has made you tired and not all with it. either that or you're completely lost on the topics we're talking about.

i was correct with what i said in the other post. you can't make an argument for someone pulling an upset based on the situations that arose for Kirkland and Lewis in their losing efforts. you just can't. it's dumb. even your point about Calzaghe and his hands being brittle was dumb, because Joe had that throughout his whole Pro career. he never lost a fight under those conditions. he wouldn't lose to Froch either. hell would freeze over first.

Calzaghe fought the best around that were prepared to fight him. he can't force all these fighters to get in the ring with him. it doesn't work like that. some fighters find it easy to get others in the ring. others find it near impossible. look at Lennox with Tyson and Bowe. not all fighters are the same, and neither are their situations.

wait! what the hell are you talking about? you're going to give an earlier Carl Froch the reputation and fame he had later on when fighting the likes of Johnson, Bute, Ward etc etc????? you've lost it now. what is this, back to the future or something. atsch

Groves was more known when he fought Froch, than Froch was when he wanted the fight after Calzaghe had beaten Kessler. that's not an opinion. it's a fact.
and Groves only had a couple of fights on Boxnation, the rest were with Sky.

why wouldn't Wa55en have allowed Calzaghe to join the Super Six???? he always went after the best fights for Joe but wasn't able to get them for one reason or another. if they were all together in one tournament and willing to throw down, Joe and Wa55en would have been happy with that. like i said in the other post, there is nothing to argue against that. nothing but completely wrong opinions like you have.

of course it made sense to fight in the Super Six. they were looking for the best fighters to face off to find the Champ of the division because Joe had left. now they wanted a new guy to be the lead SMW. the only problem that i could see with the set up was Ward being the only one to have all his fights at home. all the others had no problem with having home/away fights. Joe would have went for that if he was asked when he was around.

Wa55en tried to get the very best the division had to offer. and no, they weren't all about them pricing themselves out. some were. but the others just knew they couldn't beat him.

when Reid, Mitchell and Woodhall all had their belts, they were offered big money for a unification with Joe. they instead took on other fights with them getting nowhere near the money that Wa55en had offered. but, when they lost the belt, they came running back for the fight(and for less money i may add) because they no longer had anything to lose.

Hopkins was asked what it would take to fight Joe, and he came back with a $3 Million request with the fight taking place in the states. Joe's side accepted and was all ready to go. 24 hours later, and Bernard asks for double the money. so it's impossible to get **** done when dealing with these kind of Arseholes.

what can you do though?? nothing is the answer. you can't force anyone to fight even if the terms are very generous and what they asked for.

Wa55en tried to get the best fighters for Hatton also. no other promoter would have been any different. Vivian Harris famously turned down a big pay packet for the fight. he was scared. Sharmba Mitchell turned down big money because he was waiting on the Tszyu rematch and didn't want to lose to Hatton beforehand. Mitchell always felt he'd beat Kostya in a rematch. his confidence was nothing but hot air. Kelson Pinto had someone from Wa55ens team waiting for him at the airport only for him not to turn up. he only called a few days before the Hatton fight to tell them some bull**** excuse about him being ill. he wasn't ill. the ****er turned up against Miguel Cotto a couple of months later instead getting only a fraction of what he would have got for the Hatton fight.

when Hatton had beaten Tszyu, Wa55en wouldn't have had any problem getting the same fights that Hatton did get with another Promoter. because his profile was at it's highest, and any fighter causing problems and trying to duck would have made news for all to see. but Hatton had made his choice and left.

come to Germany??? are you living in Germany?? if that's the case, how did you find all this news about Joe? :think i'm sure most of what was happening back then wasn't being shown on German TV.

Froch and Kessler wouldn't have been able to do anything about it if Ottke did the same to them and refused the fight. nothing at all.

 

Joe has never fought 9 duds then one good one at any point since winning the WBO title.

but you continue with your Welsh hate.

 

i'd go with Johnson being a tougher fight than it was with Jones. well, any fight that Joe had was tougher than Jones.

the war part i completely disagree with though. Joe would just pick off a come forward Johnson in the same way he did to Lacy.

i see a wide UD.

 

he has

why? Joe is English. flop.

 

I think there would have been some awesome exchanges for sure... Calzaghe probably would have won, but I think it would have been much tougher for him than Lacy. I think LHW G. Johnson was just an all around tougher guy than Lacy, and had more heart.

Jones - Calzaghe in about 02 would have been a good fight. But I don't expect you want to go into that with me.