Greater fighter,based on history and quality of opponents. Ali or PBF

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Waynegrade, Mar 21, 2014.


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  1. Entaowed

    Entaowed Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    The question is would Ali, or even everyone today, skip the bigger threats to take easy fights for big paydays. I do not think Ali's pride would allow that. He fought for years after he could even pass a standard physical when he had Parkinson, when his Freddy Pacheco refused to continue with him due to the risk, against advice as late as 12-81 against Berbick.

    Money & material causes shape so many things. But it is not a determnistic factor deciding what all do as if there are no other considerations, including ego & principle.
     
    Entaowed, Mar 23, 2014
    Entaowed, Mar 23, 2014
    #31
  2. Waynegrade

    Waynegrade Boxing Addict Full Member

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    First of all, it is not with arrogance that I say people always will debate the ATG`s. They`ve been doing that,long before am and will continue to do it long after us as well. As for the fight game now it is what it is... And when champs want to take the safe routes and NOT fight the fights we fans want to see, their legacy will suffer... I assure you that even the fab 4 wanted bragging rights, and the $ that came with it. Greats from the past were willing to take risk, to stake their claim. ALL,ALL,ALL the past greats have taken the resident `tomato can`. But, they also took THE big fights that came with the risk of losing that coveted either O 0r loss on their ledger.Floyd does NOT have the names on his glossy record that Ali did on his, period...Cukoo land ?? That`s a good one ;) What true greats did looks like this... Frazier fought big George a second time in spite of the bludgeoning he took the first time. Do you think that was soley about $ ? Frazier wanted to avenge the beating he took first time out. He was willing to put himself at risk. Floyd never has and never will. And your in cuckoo land if you think he will any time soon !
     
    Waynegrade, Mar 24, 2014
    Waynegrade, Mar 24, 2014
    #32
  3. Foxy 01

    Foxy 01 Boxing Junkie banned

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    Firstly. Mayweather was NEVER officially beaten ( although he took on board his performance in JLC. 1 and went for the immediate rematch ) so we don't know for sure whether he would go for the rematch the way Joe did.

    Secondly. Again check out Ali's fight purses and tell me where else he was going to earn the 2 and a half million, he got for the Frazier fight at that time? Where else was he going to earn 5 million for a fight against ANYONE else other than Foreman at that time?


    It is absurd to claim that Ali wouldn't take the obscene amounts of money fighters like Mayweather get in this day and age, for fighting guys who couldn't beat him as long as their assholes point downwards, rather than go for the one huge payday and risk everything. You, like any of the rest of us, simply do not know.

    No one is questioning Ali's courage, but the disparity between what he was paid to fight no hopers, and what Mayweather gets for fighting the same, is astronomical. At 20 - 25 million a pop for fighting tomato cans, rather than 50 million for fighting a live opponent, Ali is astute enough to fight 10 cans, and bank the 200 mill, then worry about the 50 mill showdown.
     
    Foxy 01, Mar 24, 2014
    Foxy 01, Mar 24, 2014
    #33
  4. Waynegrade

    Waynegrade Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Look Foxy, I get it... But we fans lose out on some great fights because of how business is done nowadays...
    I get it`s about making the $ while you can and with minimal risk. But damn, we still one to see the great fights that we all clamor for. Money, testing,promotional groups get in the way as well. And we all lose out...I understand it`s a business. But,I wish pride would come into play a bit more and they`d take the tough fights... Hey I give Lewis props for immediately calling out Rahman who just laid his ass out...
     
    Waynegrade, Mar 24, 2014
    Waynegrade, Mar 24, 2014
    #34
  5. JLP 6

    JLP 6 Fighter/Puncher Full Member

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    This post is a diamond and it will be completely ignored because it is intelligent.

    These threads end up being a one-side beating. It gets really interesting when a guy starts e-raging because his logic is being pulled apart by the wings without much effort.

    Thanks for this post.
     
    JLP 6, Mar 24, 2014
    JLP 6, Mar 24, 2014
    #35
  6. JLP 6

    JLP 6 Fighter/Puncher Full Member

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    2 million dollars in the 60's was the same as 20 million today. Ali was taking on the best, telling them he was going to beat them, and beat them. Seriously.
     
    JLP 6, Mar 24, 2014
    JLP 6, Mar 24, 2014
    #36
  7. mr. magoo

    mr. magoo VIP Member Full Member

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    I like your post and agree with it in principle. But many of your observations work both ways. Floyd was not fighting at his natural weight class or was prime when he met a lot of the men you mentioned. He had 17 fights when he handely beat Genaro Hernandez. He was out of his class and past it when he beat Canelo, and probably most of the other men he's faced. His record is primarily comprised of title holders, ranked contenders, unbeaten fighters, etc.. He never fought Pac and perhaps a few others, but I think summing up his whole career as being "cherry picked" is overstated.
     
    mr. magoo, Mar 24, 2014
    mr. magoo, Mar 24, 2014
    #37
  8. Stevie G

    Stevie G Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Muhammad Ali,definitely ! For many of the reasons already posted.
     
    Stevie G, Mar 24, 2014
    Stevie G, Mar 24, 2014
    #38
  9. Waynegrade

    Waynegrade Boxing Addict Full Member

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    MM, I get what your saying. Listen, I want to say that when PBF came up, I was a huge fan ! I thought it was awesome when he stepped up and dismantle Chicanito ... And, they way he tore up Chico. But,over the years,it became about money and dictating terms. And then about proecting that O.He is an amazingly talented fighter, zero doubt about that. I (however) stand by my feelings that he sold out on true greatness and his legacy for $ and `selectively` choosing his opponents. Maybe not blatant cherry-picking, but you get what I`m saying. Can`t you just see Duran sneering at him in contempt, or Hearns baleful stare of total disrespect ? He will retire with more money than all of them and that ) intact. But, he will lose the privilege of looing into the eyes of his counterparts of the past knowing he belonged....
     
    Waynegrade, Mar 24, 2014
    Waynegrade, Mar 24, 2014
    #39
  10. Waynegrade

    Waynegrade Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Thanks JLP, much appreciated. Hey, at the end of the day it is all opinions... And of course we will disagree, debate and even argue ;) But, I stand by my opinion that the Duran`s, Ali`s, Hagler`s,Hearns and SRL`s fought their top notch peers... So, IMO, the stand on a higher pedestal...People get kind of crazed in defending PBF, but his body of work pales in comparison to the aforementioned fighters...
     
    Waynegrade, Mar 24, 2014
    Waynegrade, Mar 24, 2014
    #40
  11. JLP 6

    JLP 6 Fighter/Puncher Full Member

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    Mr. Magoo, you know I respect you, but let me please offer a difference of your oppinion in terms of the level of Floyd's competition.

    Canelo was green in my book and everyone knew that he was tailor made for Floyd. If Floyd is technically on the slide ,which in real life, does not seem to be the case. Canelo was the same green that Hopkins was against Roy the first time they fought. Hernandez was a great win.

    We cannot just roll over the Pacquaio fight. That option to duck was a lot harder for Ali to do because there were so few titles that one could call themselves champions without beating the champion.



    At 147 in 2007:





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    Seriously...what are we doing to Ali here with this disrespect?
     
    JLP 6, Mar 24, 2014
    JLP 6, Mar 24, 2014
    #41
  12. JLP 6

    JLP 6 Fighter/Puncher Full Member

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    Double post.
     
    JLP 6, Mar 24, 2014
    JLP 6, Mar 24, 2014
    #42
  13. OneLennoxLewis

    OneLennoxLewis Member Full Member

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    'i keep seeing 'where else would Ali get $5 million in '74 apart from fighting Foreman?'

    am I missing something? Since when do challengers pick the champion they fight?

    I am struggling to understand this thread. The answer is Ali. I didnt even think it would be a debate
     
    OneLennoxLewis, Mar 24, 2014
    OneLennoxLewis, Mar 24, 2014
    #43
  14. Waynegrade

    Waynegrade Boxing Addict Full Member

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    If this post doesn`t nail it on the head, nothing will... When you look at the Ali resume and who he fought (especially the 70`s) . Wow, it`s not even a race...Great homework JLP !! Come on guys,look at Ali`s resume from the seventies !!
     
    Waynegrade, Mar 24, 2014
    Waynegrade, Mar 24, 2014
    #44
  15. Waynegrade

    Waynegrade Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Well I agree with you completely, but,there are few few,non-believers...While I`m at it, Lenox fought them all too !
     
    Waynegrade, Mar 24, 2014
    Waynegrade, Mar 24, 2014
    #45
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